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my Question is Has the original legion's EVER combined there gene-seed to make a sucessor chaptor. Like the imperial fists & ultra-marines. Or the bloodangels and Ravenguard. I ask this Because I have noticed In the lore Over time some of the Legion founders , Like the Imperial fists are missing Some of the lesser gene's Like belchers gland, & sus-an membrain In the imperial fist's example. I thought by trying to combine the geneseed groups of two legions they might help to replace the others Missing genetic organ data. Using the ultramarines as a basic blueprint since there's is still perfect as a template, All the soon to be founded chapters could possibly be as fine as the marines of Old crusades when the emperor still walked. with ALL the glands needed to make a marine "invincible" again so to speak.




My second question is MORE of a statement. Is it JUST me or are the bloodravens the Surviving loyalist marines from the Thousand-sons legion before they turned traitors of chaos? Because so far thats my Best assumption. But I wanna see if the general public agrees with my theory.
I at first thought they where just blood angels distant offshoot... But now Im thinking they chose that color and heraldry to hide the fact that they are still loyal thousandsons. Or where till all true records where removed in the Unfounding, and then overtime forgot who they where.

1. No that has never and will never happen. They don't have the know how to do this.
2. It's not your theory, it's the main theory that has been going around since DOW came out and a very valid one at that with lots of hints and clues.

Getting blended Gene-Seed almost never ends well any Chapter that gets it.

1, No
2, That is the general rumor surrounding the blood ravens past...

Oh well so much the first one. and as for the second I thought so I just wanted to see if I was reading it right is all.

Although it has been answered, a side note based on your wording would be the it is not the chapters that make new succesors, founding of chapters only happens under sanction by the High Lords and is done by Mars.

thanks bluntman! i always thought the chapters Decided when a sucessor was made when the founding legions do there legendary gatherings. . the highlords really hold that much sway with the astartes huh? Mars I can understand its needed to make there gear for the most part but ... really the high lords make the call..... weird. Thanks again. my questions are awnsered

Archon_steerling wrote:thanks bluntman! i always thought the chapters Decided when a sucessor was made when the founding legions do there legendary gatherings. . the highlords really hold that much sway with the astartes huh? Mars I can understand its needed to make there gear for the most part but ... really the high lords make the call..... weird. Thanks again. my questions are awnsered

It's not that they hold sway over them but the fact they have all the large stocks of gene-seed and equipment needed for a founding.

Archon_steerling wrote:thanks bluntman! i always thought the chapters Decided when a sucessor was made when the founding legions do there legendary gatherings. . the highlords really hold that much sway with the astartes huh? Mars I can understand its needed to make there gear for the most part but ... really the high lords make the call..... weird. Thanks again. my questions are awnsered

Its the control method set up to stop a Horus Heresy happening again. Chapters have enough geneseed/manufacturing to maintain and replace losses at the ~1000 man limit, this stops them growing to big.

It is debated about where the great geneseed vaults are either on Terra or Mars. But it is presented from fluff that the High Lords decide when a founding will happen and where the founding's chapters will be stationed. Once the order is made Mars makes the founding as it is the only organisation with the biological/technilogical knowledge and tools to make it happen.

This means that no one organisation can take control of space marine production.

The Relictors are rumoured to be founded using Ultramarine's and Dark Angel's gene-seed IIRC.

The Relictors are rumoured to be founded from either Ultramarine or Dark Angel geneseed due to their geneseed stability.

Founding a chapter with two different geneseeds doesn't work and any attempts to blend geneseed have met with bad results.

Does it apply to traitor legions? Because in storm of iron it says that some if the iron warrior are a mix of iron warrior and imperial fist.

eviltrout wrote:Does it apply to traitor legions? Because in storm of iron it says that some if the iron warrior are a mix of iron warrior and imperial fist.

No, it doesn't. There's no such thing as mixed geneseed. It says there are Iron Warriors with Imperial Fists geneseed. That's because Traitors oftentimes have to use whatever geneseed they can get their hands on to make fresh Chaos Space Marines.

IIRC, didn't they try to mix gene seed in the Cursed Founding? Look where they ended up.

Deathly Angel wrote:IIRC, didn't they try to mix gene seed in the Cursed Founding? Look where they ended up.

According to Imperial Armour IX the Magi Biologis overseeing the 21st Founding, either of their own initiative or at the orders of the High Lords, attempted to 'refine, augment or otherwise enhance' the geneseed to be used. There is no mention there of 'mixing' geneseed; to the best of my knowledge there never has been.

eviltrout wrote:Does it apply to traitor legions? Because in storm of iron it says that some if the iron warrior are a mix of iron warrior and imperial fist.

The Iron Warriors (in Storm of Iron) stole Imperial Fists geneseed to augment their new recruits, likewise the Night Lords (in Blood Reaver) stole that of the White Consuls for the same reasons. This is not the same as 'mixing geneseed' however; the resultant Astartes will be, genetically-speaking 100% pure Imperial Fists (or White Consuls) but their allegiance will be to their respective Traitor Legions.

The Relictors have been the only chapter that I have seen that are thought to have have Ultramarines and Dark Angels Geneseed according to the IA article on them. Whether this is still the case who knows.

I vaguely remember reading something to do with the Black Dragons as well, but can't remember.

Pilau Rice wrote:The Relictors have been the only chapter that I have seen that are thought to have have Ultramarines and Dark Angels Geneseed according to the IA article on them. Whether this is still the case who knows.

I vaguely remember reading something to do with the Black Dragons as well, but can't remember.

The Black Dragons are another product of the Cursed Founding whose geneseed has mutated, their Chapter Approved article makes no mention of mixing geneseed however.

The Relictors' write-up in Index Astartes III indeed states that their geneseed was taken from the Ultramarines and Dark Angels - they were not, however, created as part of the Cursed Founding, so the implication would be that some Relictors have Dark Angel geneseed and others have Ultramarine, not that theirs is a fusion of the two.

English Assassin wrote:
The Relictors' write-up in Index Astartes III indeed states that their geneseed was taken from the Ultramarines and Dark Angels - they were not, however, created as part of the Cursed Founding, so the implication would be that some Relictors have Dark Angel geneseed and others have Ultramarine, not that theirs is a fusion of the two.

It's not entirely clear as to what founding they are from actually according to the article.

Originally designated the Fire Claws, it is thought the Relictors were founded during the dark days of the Age of Apostasy, though records of events during that strife-torn period are notoriously ambiguous and difficult to uncover

but also states

One transcription of the Mythos Angelica Mortis suggests that the Fire Claws maybe have been one of the so-called Astartes Praesus Chapters

If the former was correct then they possibly could be cursed founding as

The Black Dragons were founded just prior to the Age of Apostasy, a time of civil war and bloodshed that almost saw the Imperium destroyed. It was a dark time for the Imperium when worlds were destroyed on the whims of the insane Lord Vandire.

English Assassin wrote:The Black Dragons are another product of the Cursed Founding whose geneseed has mutated, their Chapter Approved article makes no mention of mixing geneseed however. .

Yeah, it wasn't from the IA article on them it was from a novel, but I can't remember which on it was. Fear the Alien maybe? Probably wrong, just have a scant recollection of thinking hmmm

So far as the Black Dragons go, I haven't read the story, so I have nothing on which to go other than Chapter Approved.

Since the dates are convergent, I suppose the Relictors could indeed be part of the Cursed Founding (though thanks to poor continuity-checking many years ago Foundings 13 through 21 all take place 'shortly before the Age of Apostasy'). If they are, then one might indeed infer their geneseed to be a distillation of the best qualities of the Ultramarines' and Dark Angels', making their fate appropriately ironic.

1) We don't know. We think not, because it isn't mentioned anywhere else as being done, but the 21st Founding feths it up for everyone. No-one knows the extent of the 21st Founding, how many chapters were made, whose gene-seed was used, what modificiations were made, etc. It's possible some tech-magus tried to blend the DNA, but it's absolutely certain that it didn't go well. If the blending itself didn't work, then it is a safe bet that the implantation process failed, or the Marines spontaneously combusted. Or something equally unpleasant and fatal. That's the beauty of the 21st Founding: you can create your own chapter, with totally fethed up fluff, and say its a 21st Founding chapter. Most folks will give you a pass, as long as you give your chapter some fluff-based flaw.

2)A significant number of people think this, although it is possible that they are not loyalist survivors, but were actually a 21st Founding chapter made with Thousand Sons' gene-seed. After all, the Rubric of Ahriman supposedly affected ALL Thousand Sons, so I suspect even loyalists would have been turned into undead automatons, too. My money is on a 21st Founding origin for the Blood Ravens.

Or maybe they are that "mixed" gene-seed chapter you are wondering about. There are a few (very few) people who think they are a mix of Blood Angels and Raven Guard, based entirely on their name combining both Chapters' names, and absolutley no other evidence.

Yes, gene-seeds can be mixed or combined. Such a gene-seed is called 'Chimeric'. A few, some, or many of the chapters created during the 21st 'cursed' founding have chimeric gene-seeds. We don't know for sure, the records are not clear or non-existent. A notable example are the Minotaurs. The practice; however, led to horrible mutations and genetic instability among many of the chimeric chapters (and many of the founding's other chapters due to genetic manipulation in other forms). Suffice to say, not many survived. It is extremely doubtful any chimeric gene stocks were created outside of the 21st founding.

Sources:

Imperial Armour 10
Chapter Approved ~2001...The one with cursed founding rules.
Index Astartes II (The one with the cursed founding entry?)

squidhills wrote:1) We don't know. We think not, because it isn't mentioned anywhere else as being done, but the 21st Founding feths it up for everyone. No-one knows the extent of the 21st Founding, how many chapters were made, whose gene-seed was used, what modificiations were made, etc. It's possible some tech-magus tried to blend the DNA, but it's absolutely certain that it didn't go well. If the blending itself didn't work, then it is a safe bet that the implantation process failed, or the Marines spontaneously combusted. Or something equally unpleasant and fatal. That's the beauty of the 21st Founding: you can create your own chapter, with totally fethed up fluff, and say its a 21st Founding chapter. Most folks will give you a pass, as long as you give your chapter some fluff-based flaw.

2)A significant number of people think this, although it is possible that they are not loyalist survivors, but were actually a 21st Founding chapter made with Thousand Sons' gene-seed. After all, the Rubric of Ahriman supposedly affected ALL Thousand Sons, so I suspect even loyalists would have been turned into undead automatons, too. My money is on a 21st Founding origin for the Blood Ravens.

Or maybe they are that "mixed" gene-seed chapter you are wondering about. There are a few (very few) people who think they are a mix of Blood Angels and Raven Guard, based entirely on their name combining both Chapters' names, and absolutley no other evidence.

If you've read Codex: Chaos Space Marines 4th Edition, you should note that the Thousand Sons entry states that the Rubric of Ahriman covered the PLANET OF THE SORCERERS with a storm of magic so powerful that even daemons fled and only Magnus himself could stop it. Only the Thousand Sons there would have been affected. And the Thousand Sons Fleet left Prospero before the Burning, so they wouldn't have been at the Planet of the Sorcerers, which is confirmed in Age of Darkness: Rebirth. And the Fourth Fellowship (Chapter) of the Thousand Sons is aboard that Fleet. The Blood Ravens are a fleet-based Chapter...whose traditions and tactical doctrines match the Corvidae Cult of the Thousand Sons...see the connection?