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< taken by the void dragon >

I guess going RAW you can't pivot if you'd hit a model or move to within an inch of one.

You must move to tank shock, so pivoting doesnt cut it.

JD - as pointed out you CAN pivot when models are in btb, you just make sure they stay in base to base. Surprised he didn't want to tanksho k; unless there was terrain in the way and didn't want to risk the immobilised result?

Page 63 "Successive turns " ... skip to paragraph 2 ...
" If the vehicle pivots on the spot (to shoot at its attackers for example), move these models out of the way and then place them back into base contact."

So if you want you can pivot and drive away from a unit your locked with. You could also pivot and tank shock. If you're not locked you will need to remain +1".

Tri wrote: If you're not locked you will need to remain +1".

And you can't be locked against something with no WS (like a Land Raider). So you always have to move back an inch after assaulting - if you didn't manage to kill it?

DakkaDakka wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Tri wrote:Page 63 "Successive turns " ... skip to paragraph 2 ...
" If the vehicle pivots on the spot (to shoot at its attackers for example), move these models out of the way and then place them back into base contact."

So if you want you can pivot and drive away from a unit your locked with. You could also pivot and tank shock. If you're not locked you will need to remain +1".

The second part is not true. Read further into the rules for assaulting vehicles. They specifically DO state that models remain in base to base.

As for the first part, the rules do all you to pivot and drive away. The models that would be in the way are moved, and put back into base to base. Since it doesn't state how far they can be moved, you simply can move them to prevent movement, if you so chose.

Sorry I may be confusing matters with the wrong use of locked, I meant in b2b. Also Driving away means moving away (ie combat speed or greater)

You can piviot if there are models in b2b the unit is moved round the tank and any models that started touching it are put back touching it. You could then move away without tank charging, so rather then tank charging at cruising speed you reverse of at combat speed. However if the unit hadn't charged you then you can't pivot into the 1" no go area.

TO ruling was dead wrong, I will give you that.

Unfortunately more information is needed on what the opponent was attempting to do with the pivot, but leaving on the unexposed side(you stated that the bloodletters were only covering 3 sides) is legal and valid(pivoting so that the front of the Land raider is facing the uncovered side).

Your opponent could also declare a tank shock of 6" in any given direction, pivoting through your 'letters then shocking them as well(if the direction was not through the open side), in this case your 'letters would not necessarily be shifted at all if the land raider does not end the tank shock over them/within 1" of them(a <1" tank shock works like a repulsion pulse, if you tank shock 1mm then at the end of the shock, assuming Ld pass/fearless shocked unit, then all enemy models shift 1" from the tank).

Remember that forcing a tank shock does very little to the opponent aside from forcing a combat seed movement, or giving you an extra DoG option from the unit forcing the shock; if the tank moves slowly enough, it can still fire a main weapon and all defensives.

DakkaDakka wrote:

so..if you assault a vehicle and you do not destroy it,you unit must remain in base contact with the vehicle,or must you move them 1" away?-as they can not be in the movement or shooting phase closer than 1" from any enemy unit?

Che-Vito wrote:In this case, forcing a tank shock meant either firing a Multi Melta or an Assault Cannon. Not both, at a vehicle of mine.

The pivoting was done initially from the corner of the LR. When I pointed out that it was done over the center of the vehicle, the player basically ended up doing a "unparallel park" job between the Bloodletters on 3 sides and impassible terrain. I certainly was annoyed enough, to not mind moving my Bloodletters (displaced by the pivot) around to the front of said pivoting vehicle. The TO ruled otherwise, so a bit of a moot point in that case.

First bit: PotMS takes care of that, the P allows the LR to fire the 2 main weapons(and can even still do so at 2 different targets)

Second bit: well, it sounds like your opponent either didn't know any of the rules; or, more likely from the Pivoting bit, was just plain cheating.

As a Personal note: PotMS is why I love the LRC with MM+SB; I can move 6" and fire all 6 T-L bolters, the Storm Bolter, and the T-L Asscann at infantry, and fire the Multi-melta at an enemy vehicle. If the Storm Raven is ever made available to other marine armies, I will make the SRC(Storm raven Crusader) for my marine forces, twice the available move-and-fire distance and now the MM is also T-L(although it loses the SB option, it costs 35-40 points less, and still has 4 Missiles). The Typhoon ML option is also nice

usa_supersonic wrote:so..if you assault a vehicle and you do not destroy it,you unit must remain in base contact with the vehicle,or must you move them 1" away?-as they can not be in the movement or shooting phase closer than 1" from any enemy unit?

Your unit remains in contact with the vehicle. Rules are on page 63 of the BRB as has been stated earlier.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

usa_supersonic wrote:so..if you assault a vehicle and you do not destroy it,you unit must remain in base contact with the vehicle,or must you move them 1" away?-as they can not be in the movement or shooting phase closer than 1" from any enemy unit?

Your unit remains in contact with the vehicle. Rules are on page 63 of the BRB as has been stated earlier.

But, you cannot be locked in combat with a Tank.

So my question is this.

The Infantry can be SHOT at from the tank or other units, because they are not locked in combat.

But the Infantry cannot shoot, because they are in btb?

That is the only reason I can see not needing to move them 1" away at end of combat.

They can shoot just fine. They aren't locked in combat either.

Landrain wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

usa_supersonic wrote:so..if you assault a vehicle and you do not destroy it,you unit must remain in base contact with the vehicle,or must you move them 1" away?-as they can not be in the movement or shooting phase closer than 1" from any enemy unit?

Your unit remains in contact with the vehicle. Rules are on page 63 of the BRB as has been stated earlier.

But, you cannot be locked in combat with a Tank.

So my question is this.

The Infantry can be SHOT at from the tank or other units, because they are not locked in combat.

But the Infantry cannot shoot, because they are in btb?

That is the only reason I can see not needing to move them 1" away at end of combat.

They're in contact not locked in CC, theres a bit of diference there.
They are free to move as normal, shoot and charge if they choose to do so.

Landrain wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

usa_supersonic wrote:so..if you assault a vehicle and you do not destroy it,you unit must remain in base contact with the vehicle,or must you move them 1" away?-as they can not be in the movement or shooting phase closer than 1" from any enemy unit?

Your unit remains in contact with the vehicle. Rules are on page 63 of the BRB as has been stated earlier.

But, you cannot be locked in combat with a Tank.

So my question is this.

The Infantry can be SHOT at from the tank or other units, because they are not locked in combat.

But the Infantry cannot shoot, because they are in btb?

That is the only reason I can see not needing to move them 1" away at end of combat.

There is a reason I listed a Page number; if you read that page, you will have your answer; it is all clearly written on that page(but I will give you a further "where to look": under Successive turns)

the reason i ask, is it says if the vehicle doesn't move, on successive turns the unit may attack the vehicle in CC.

And normall you must charge to be in CC.

but it doesn't say that they can charge the vehicle again...

Now this I can respond better to.

Normally you either charge into combat or are locked in combat; however the successive turns portion allows for continued attacks in subsequent assaults.

As for the Charging again; the last paragraph covers that in a not-so-obvious way. The models in base-contact are already allowed to make attacks as are any non-base-to-base models that would be counted as engaged against other opponents; so since you would declare all assaults and then move models, and you are neither moving models nor required to declare the assault(but are actually required by the assault rules to attack the vehicle, since you have permission to do so) and you count-as engaged; you cannot declare a Charge on the Vehicle you are already in base-to-base with. Also you do not Charge in your enemies turn, which is the only successive turn that the vehicle should be in base-contact with your unit if you are not already engaged with another enemy unit as well(because of the following).

What you can do if you want the extra attacks in your own turn is to step back from the vehicle(at least 1"), then assault it again.

< taken by the void dragon >

You raise an interesting point Che. It doesn't say how they are to be placed back into b2b. So in theory he could pivot, and then you could totally surround him. Making it impossible for him to disembark any unit inside.
They can't really argue that your guys weren't at point X initially because probably none of them will be in the same place anymore.
And para 2 of successive turns states that if the vehicle pivots when in b2b with enemy model(s) to "move these models out of the way as you shift the vehicle and then place them back into base contact with the vehicle". Thus it must happen before the vehicle can drive off.

The only safe way to get away would be if there was a clear path in front of the vehicle at the start of its movement phase. EDIT: Or behind it. Forgot about reverse.
In fact, even if you only had 1 model in b2b, you could place it back in front of the vehicle and it wouldn't be able to move without tank shocking. EDIT: So you'd need 2 models to stop reversing.

Yes/no/maybe/I'm not playing with you?

Che-Vito wrote:Ran into this at a tournament this weekend:

My opponent's Land Raider had Bloodletters in base contact on 3 sides of it. For it to move out, it either had to:
(a) Pivot and go out the open side
(b) Tank Shock through my Bloodletters

(c) He could also move straight out of the side that does not have Bloodletters in base contact with it, without tank shocking anything.

< taken by the void dragon >