Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok so here is a new list im thinking of running for the 1500 point cheese fest coming up.

The rules are as follows
its a doubles tournament each player having 1500 points (im paired with a grey knights player) to a total of 3000 points a side
the cheesier ur list is the more points you get. for example having more elites than troops choices or heavy supports etcetera
you get bonus composition for named characters

The list I want you guys to review goes like this:

HQ

Kairos Fateweaver 333 pts

The Blue Scribes 130 pts

The Masque 100 pts

Elites

3x Flamers 105 pts

3x Flamers 105 pts

3x Flamers 105 pts

Troops

7x Horrors + Changeling 124 pts

7x Daemonettes 98 pts

Fast Attack

5x Screamers of Tzeentch 80 pts

Heavy Support

1x Soul Grinder + phlegm 160 pts

1x Soul Grinder + phlegm 160 pts

1500 pts

Basically the strategy which should be obvious is to use the masques pavane of slaanesh and the blue scribes pavane of slaanesh to clump together large groups of units maximising the hits
on the soul grinder templates and flamers templates. If I roll a 1, 2 ,3 on the WATCH THIS roll I can use this ability 5 times in a turn on different units to get them to clump together.
Then I have Kairos the screamers and the soul grinders (if needed) as tank hunters... even glancing on the breath of chaos flamers can take out tanks. The horrors and daemonettes are purely as force organisation fillers (with the daemonettes serving more a purpose to "deliver" the masque).

So what do you think? Help wave wise would also be appreciated i.e whats in wave one whats in wave two. and yeah. the other toss up to make is between 5 screamers of tzeentch for 80 pts or a bare naked demon prince for 80 pts. I thought the screamers would be better value.

I played a Daemon list at one point containing lots of the Pavane/Breath combo, but it doesn't really work out. The Flamers die like bitches to any torrent fire, and in CC you're completely screwed. Plus you have no reliable way to take out vehicles.

The Blue scribes are really pretty terrible, and not at all points efficient.

I think if paired with GK, you can make a pretty nasty Crusher/Dreadspam combo list.

Something like:

Weaver 333

Masque 100

(7) Crushers, Icon, Instrument, Fury 360

(7) Crushers, Icon, Instrument, Fury 360

(6) Crushers, Instrument, Fury 255

(5) Plaguebearers 75

(5) Plaguebearers 75

= 1478

First wave is 1 big crushers and the smaller squad and Fateweaver. Both waves have an Icon to bring your stuff in without risking Mishap. Masque is there to Pavane stuff out of cover for your Crushers, she wants to come down t2/3 ideally.

Then your GK partner can take something along the lines of:

Coteaz 100

Venerable Dread, 2x TLAC, Psybolt ammo 195

Venerable Dread, 2x TLAC, Psybolt ammo 195

Venerable Dread, 2x TLAC, Psybolt ammo 195

(3) Warrior acolytes 12
Razorback, TLHB, Psybolt ammo 50

(3) Warrior acolytes 12
Razorback, TLHB, Psybolt ammo 50

(3) Warrior acolytes 12
Razorback, TLHB, Psybolt ammo 50

(3) Warrior acolytes 12
Razorback, TLHB, Psybolt ammo 50

(3) Warrior acolytes 12
Razorback, TLHB, Psybolt ammo 50

(3) Warrior acolytes 12
Razorback, TLHB, Psybolt ammo 50

Dread, 2x TLAC, Psybolt ammo 135

Dread, 2x TLAC, Psybolt ammo 135

Dread, 2x TLAC, Psybolt ammo 135

= 1462

Both lists have some points left over for upgrades/tweaking.

Not many things that could reliably beat that, really.

GK demechs your opponent, Crushers eat everything.

I think Blue Scribes and Masque need to be within, what, 18" to get range on Pavane? Considering how easily either of them will go down to Bolter fire (let alone any significant assault), I think they are just too weak to build a strategy around. Same with Flamers. They can make the enemy hurt with that first round of templates, but odds are they'll never be able to fully wipe out a unit. If just a few survivors are able to charge your Flamers, they're dead or - best case - out of the game a few turns.

Jabbdo's suggestion of Bloodcrushers with GK fire support does seem like a potent combo. Bloodcrushers are absolutely vicious if they are unhindered by enemy transports and walkers. And if you don't get cheese-points for fielding 20 Bloodcrushers, I don't know how else you will (well I guess you can add 4 more!).

Shylark wrote:(with the daemonettes serving more a purpose to "deliver" the masque).

How do you mean "deliver?" If you mean as a meatshield, you are mistaken (as was I). Masque isn't an IC so she cannot join anything. The 3++ she has is awesome, but not that great when bolters are 3+ to wound. I really like the idea of the Pavane/Breath combo, but with Pavane's lack of move range (1d6) you have to get nice and close.
If you have the models, I'd say go with bloodcrushers.
Drop your 'crushers close to the action in your first wave and then drop your masque and blue scribes in your second wave (and hope the Gods are on your side) to give your crushers, your teammate's (basically giving them fleet) or your opponent's stuff a little push to get into CC faster. Leave the flamers in the back to act as clean up squads to kill off the contents of the bawkses your crushers and imperial agents have left open in their wake.

I've used the Blue Scribes (also not ICs) a few times and never had any luck with them. In fact I haven't had any luck with Tzeentch daemons (I've never even glanced anything with a Bolt of Tzeentch).
Screamers make dubious tank hunters at best. If the tank moved at all: 4+ to hit it, if it moved more than 6": 6+ to hit. Warp Jaws are treated like melta grenades.

Viagrus wrote:I've used the Blue Scribes (also not ICs) a few times and never had any luck with them. In fact I haven't had any luck with Tzeentch daemons (I've never even glanced anything with a Bolt of Tzeentch).

Blue Scribes are an IC. The Masque is the only unique herald who is not (all others are IC unless given Chariot, in which case they all lose IC status).

I agree on Tzeentch Daemons being ineffective. Unless you're packed to the gills with Bolts, they'll never amount to more than a few potshots. Better to spend your points doing what Daemons do well.

I dont have the models for blood crushers and i have a quasi hatred for khorne/ slaanesh i am taking masque and daemonettes purely for the synergy with a template army...

Also tzeentch are not ineffective... no way my normal tzeentch list plays fine around using boon of mutation and breath of chaos comboes to harass down units while using ur ridiculous survivability to stick round...

I wouldn't call a 4+ save on t3 (4 on the flamers) ridiculous survivability. You're basically a guardsman in cover. Fateweaver helps, but you still die to torrent.

Tzeentch daemons roll over and die to almost everything in CC, hell even IG will beat them thanks to having 2/3x as many guys as you.

Plus a mono Tzeentch army basically consists of fething expensive guardsmen packing 8-10 single MM's, most of them bs3, that cant get 2D6 pen. Not very impressive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If youre gonna play Daemons, you really gotta play to their strengths, as they are a pretty gimped codex already.

thats funny as i assaulted 3 deathwing terminators with 5 flamers and one combat... not to mention the times ive glanced a chimera to wreckage and then assaulted the drops as they come out... can we focus on the strengths of tzeentch demons instead of the weaknesses as ive only lost once with my 1.5k and over tzeentch lists...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
won combat*

Yeah, I've killed a Dark Eldar Archon in CC with 5 GK warrior henchmen, but does that mean I should assume it will happen every time? Of course not.

Bottom line is, Tzeentch daemons are crap in CC. They cost a gakload and are extremely points inefficcient.

If you disagree, you mind mentioning some of the strengths Tzeentch Daemons have?

Ok strengths of Tzeentch demons.

warpfire a bucket load of AP5 dice coming at you

breath of chaos a 50% chance for a model to insta die regardless of cover, armour, or Toughness value

boon of mutation fail a toughness test and earn a free t5 fire magnet

bolt of tzeentch kind of speaks for itself.

There is a reason the Lord of Change is the most expensive pointswise of the Greater Demons hes just a straight up boss...

I get that you dont like tzeentch demons but im telling you as someone who plays them alot they can feth gak up just like any of the other gods