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I'm trying to design a list for the UK 40k doubles weekend next year. I have blood angels and my friend has guard, so we're going for armour.
The restrictions are 875pts per team and we must include 1 HQ and troops each and between us have a heavy support, fast attack and elites choice.
Here's my best attempt so far...

Guard:

HQ
Company Command Squad with 2x melta guns and chimera with heavy flamer (instead of heavy bolter) 125

Elites
Psyker Battle Squad with two extra psykers and chimera with heavy bolter 135

Troops
Veteran Squad with 2x meltaguns and chimera 145
Veteran Squad with 3x grenade launchers, and chimera 140

Heavy support
Leman Russ Battle Tank with lascannon 165
Leman Russ Demolisher 165


Blood Angels:

HQ
Librarian with Shield of Sanguinius and Sanguine Sword powers 100

Troops
Assault squad with meltagun and infernos pistol and razorback with lascannon and twin linked plasma gun 180
Assault squad with meltagun and meltabombs razorback with lascannon and twin linked plasma gun 170 (goes with libby)

Fast Attack
Baal Predator with heavy bolter sponsons 145
Baal Predator with heavy bolter sponsons 145

Heavy Support
Predator with Lascannon Sponsons 135

Oh and my friend hates vendettas. There is literally no chance of us using vendettas, so keep that in mind.
Please advise!

Why not drop one assault squad for another pred?

I like the lists.

On the Guard list I'm not sure why you've got grenade launchers when meltaguns and plasma are far superior. Also take your Leman Russes in pairs, double Demolishers would be ok to support the Chimeras as you move up.

On the Angels I would ditch the infernus and probably just go with melta bombs. I don't think you have enough troops in this list and not enough long range support, you have three ranged anti tank units and two subpar anti horde units.

Oh, Vendettas ftw! Why does you friend hate them for?

@MFletch - I could drop an assault squad for a third baal, but it seems a bit like overkill to me. Plus I think we need the scoring units. I'd love to get another auto/las predator but we share a force organisation chart, so can't have more than 3 heavy supports...

@Mercer - I agree with you about the melta/plasmas but finding the points is more difficult. I'm already skimping on them slightly in the other squads to allow me to field so many chimeras etc.
My reasoning behing the regular russ was to provide a little more long ranged fire support, that I feel we don't quite have enough of yet... Would double demolishers be much more efficient?

I suppose I could get extra armour or a HK missile on a tank instead of the infernus pistol. It was just there to fill space really and make the squads shooting a bit more reliable.

With regards to the vendettas he doesn't think they fit into his guards theme. He prefers having his tracks on the ground. Believe me I've tried to persuade him

I'd keep the infernus pistol. It adds a lot more reliability and you don't have anything better to spend the points on.

DoomMouse wrote:

@Mercer - I agree with you about the melta/plasmas but finding the points is more difficult. I'm already skimping on them slightly in the other squads to allow me to field so many chimeras etc.
My reasoning behing the regular russ was to provide a little more long ranged fire support, that I feel we don't quite have enough of yet... Would double demolishers be much more efficient?

I suppose I could get extra armour or a HK missile on a tank instead of the infernus pistol. It was just there to fill space really and make the squads shooting a bit more reliable.

With regards to the vendettas he doesn't think they fit into his guards theme. He prefers having his tracks on the ground. Believe me I've tried to persuade him

I would go double Demolishers or double Russes, not a mix. The standard Russ will give you long range fire power, but it's not mega awesome. The Demolisher can advance with the wall of Chimeras and be range by turn 2, it can pack a punch and take fire away from the advancing Chimeras. As much as I like my long range fire power I would rather take a 'Detta over a Russ, but your friend doesn't want to use those, so I'd go Demolishers in this case for asborbing fire and target saturation.

What is best for the leftover twenty points then for the blood angels at the moment I've gone for meltabombs and infernus pistol but i could trade that for some extra armour or dozerblades or HK missiles etc. I could even use it to trade a baal for a third razorback squad.

My other main concern is the guard special weapons. There's nowhere to save the points to give each squad the desired 3 meltaguns or to upgrade the grenade launchers to something more scary...

Any advice on either of these?

Yeah, three meltaguns is a lot more reliable. Grenade launchers are pretty awful on veterans in comparison.

Yes... but I was wondering which is best with the points in hand.

meltaguns

DoomMouse wrote:I'm trying to design a list for the UK 40k doubles weekend next year. I have blood angels and my friend has guard, so we're going for armour.
The restrictions are 875pts per team and we must include 1 HQ and troops each and between us have a heavy support, fast attack and elites choice.
Here's my best attempt so far...

Guard:

HQ
Company Command Squad with 2x melta guns and chimera with heavy flamer (instead of heavy bolter) 125

Elites
Psyker Battle Squad with two extra psykers and chimera with heavy bolter 135

Troops
Veteran Squad with 2x meltaguns and chimera 145
Veteran Squad with 3x grenade launchers, and chimera 140

Heavy support
Leman Russ Battle Tank with lascannon 165
Leman Russ Demolisher 165

The simple answer for your points is the PBS. Does he have to have an elite? If so, see how this grabs him...

CCS - 160pts
3x Plasma guns, Melta gun, Chimera with HHF

Marbro - 65pts

Vets - 155pts
3x Melta guns, Chimera with HHF

Vets - 155pts
3x Melta guns, Chimera with HHF

LRBT Vanq - 170pts
Hull LC

LRBT Vanq - 170pts
Hull LC

874pts

The Vanqs can easily be Demolishers, but I will point out they do give you effective long range AT that you are otherwise lacking (Str 8, 2d6 AP, 72" range). Marbro kills /something/ when he comes in and is actually kinda scary in CC where he might kill something before he dies. I normally don't mix special weapons (CCS), but I had 15 extra points and 3 plasma and a melta might be a good mix.

Good luck!

Blk Tom you got a point, but I think he should stick with the demolishers, because that can always lead to the oh balls, shoot the chimeras? no! demolishers! no! chimeras! kinda thing, and could lead to the enemy not being too effective on either (hopefully). vanquishers aren't as scary in that regard, cos they won't be advancing hard up behind

Apart from that though, I think the list you are suggesting would seem pretty good. Ah Marbo, gotta love him

Yeah, can easily go both ways, but it gives his opponent a extra turn to do damage. I am not normally sold on Vanqs due to the BS 3 (I still have no idea why Guard do not have 'Vet' crews as a option to buy) but a couple firing on the same target should get 2 hits and hopefully a pen or two. It is just the Demolisher (and all other LRBTs) are anti-infantry vehicles IMO.

Good point there Tom. Man vet crews would be sweet...And yeah, they are normally anti-infantry, but they do have potential, and the BA guy has some decent long range AT with the pred, and some (annoyingly and scarily) fast tanks to scare the enemy into shooting at them too..hmm...hard call

Well, the other thing to maybe give the Vanqs a edge is that they do not scatter at heavy 1, while the Demolisher is a large blast marker (at that BS 3).

Since the BA player is not using assault packs and is doing Razorbacks, this might not be much of a factor... the only guys who want to get in close are the Melta Vets.

Demolisher will destroy marines, TWC, Terminators and the like.... that is why they are sooooo good. Yeah, totally up to the player on what he wants, but the Demolishers might be the better choice.

He could also look at two Manticores...

Pretty much Doom Mouse, your boy has 4 options for long range AT... LRBTs, HWSs, Vendettas, and Artillery. He needs a platoon for HWSs, so that is out. He doesn't like Vendettas, so that is out. LRBTs come down to 4 options (IMO), standard, Vanq, Executioner, and Demolisher... 3 scatter and 2 of those are not great against armor and better against troops. The Demolisher has the further drawback of range but the Vanq is really only good against vehicles (maybe MCs). For Arty, I think it comes down to the Manticore, Colosus, and Medusa with BB shells. All three scatter but the Manticore covers the most area. Also the Colussus and Medusa are open topped. All 3 need protection though. If you got 2 Manticores, you could give your Melta Vets ACs and have the option of holding them back (depending on the mission) and cover the Manticores and still shoot.

Thanks very much guys, this is some really, really useful feedback! Marbo would be pretty awesome and fill the elites slot.

Out of the leman russ variants I personally lean towards the demolishers. Vanquishers seem pretty good, but I was thinking at the start that this list already seems to be a little light on anti-horde/infantry.

How does this sound for a potential guard list-half?

CCS with 4 meltas in chimera with HHF 145
Marbo 65
Vet squad with 3x melta guns and chimera with HHF 155
Vet squad with 3x grenade launcher, autocannon team and chimera with HHB 150
Demolisher with hull lascannon 180
Demolisher with hull lascannon 180

I would drop the hull LCs because it is costing a Vet squad it's Meltas.

When you choose the Demolishers, your then kinda making your whole list based around them. You then kinda need the Chimeras to support the Demolishers and vice versa. If you have the Manticores, then yes, ACs and holding back your Chimeras (and replacing the hull HF back to the HB for long range firepower) is the better choice.

I would stick to the stock Demolishers or hull heavy flamers (I prefer the HB myself). Use the points to upgrade the CCS to plasmas and consider plasma pistols. Worse comes to worse... get a melta bomb for the CCS if you have 5pts left over, or look at bolt pistols for your Vet Sergeants.

Sooo... Hows this:

CCS with 4 plasma guns and plasma pistol in chimera with HHF 175
Marbo 65
Vet squad with 3x meltaguns and chimera with HHF 155
Vet squad with 3x meltaguns and chimera with HHF 155
Demolisher with HHB 165
Demolisher with HHB 165

I'm liking the idea of the 'plasma death squad'!

Yeah, that is what I would have done if I dropped the Vanqs to Demolishers.

No long rang AT, so the BA player is going to have to pick up the slack.

I just want to throw something out there, going back to the original guard list I posted. What if i changed it to this:

HQ
Company Command Squad with 3x melta guns and chimera 135

Elites
Psyker Battle Squad with two extra psykers and chimera with heavy bolter 135

Troops
Veteran Squad with 2x meltaguns and chimera 145
Veteran Squad with 2x melta guns, and chimera 145

Heavy support
Leman Russ Battle Tank 150
Leman Russ Demolisher 165

Comparing the two:

This has three slightly weaker melta squads and a psyker battle squad to kill deathstar units. It loses a demolisher to a regular russ. Main advantage is a whole extra tank!

The second list has Marbo, a second demolisher and a plasma-death CCS.

Bearing in mind that they are teaming up with the BAs for a 1750 point game, which list is better and why?