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Hey guys, just started WH40K about a month ago and I am putting together my first 'serious' list.

I'm going for a Kan-Wall/Shooty sort of list:

HQ1: Big Mek ( + KFF + 'eavy armor)______________________________90
HQ2: Wierdboy ( + Warphead )__________________________________85

Elite1: Kommandos (15) ( + 2 Burnas + Snikrot)_____________________265
Elite2: Lootas (8 + 1Mek) ______________________________________135
Elite3: Lootas (8 + 1Mek) ______________________________________135

Heavy1: KillaKans (3) ( + 3 Grotzookas) ___________________________135
Heavy2: KillaKans (3) ( + 3 Grotzookas) ___________________________135

Troop1: Shoota Boyz (20) ( + Nob + Bosspole + 2 Big Shootas) _______ 145
Troop2: Shoota Boyz (20) ( + Nob + Bosspole + 2 Big Shootas) _______ 145
Troop3: Shoota Boyz (20) ( + Nob + Bosspole + 2 Big Shootas) _______ 145
Troop4(HQ1): DeffDread (1) ( + 2 Big Shootas)____________________ 85

__________________________________________________________1500 pts

I know the first reaction will be 'Wierdboy doesn't belong in any competitive list', but I've found that in most cases he can punch above his weight.
As an alternative I can replace him with another Big Mek with KFF or Shock gun.

My questions are:

1. Are lootas worth it or just get more regular boyz or something else?
2. Are 6 Kans enough for this to work relatively well?
3. DeffDread? or add 5 more boyz to each squad? or get 19 Grots + 1 Runtheard for objective camping?
4. Is there any huge weakness? I think the AT might be a bit poor.

5. Other suggestions?

Cheers,

DR

Yes you are very poor at AT.

Kommandos should have less boyz as the squad is too expensive compared to the damage one unit will bring or may not be able to reach.
I would bring rockets with kans for the first 6 as it has longer range and you will likely need some more AT. Why do you not have 3 squads probably 3,2,1 is better than 3 squads of 2? Why not take all 9?

I would have somewhere near 30 boyz per mob. Maybe let the back one have less or instead have grots at the back.

With a weird boy you will be handy capped by not having another kff but as you say most of the time they do amazing damage.

Otherwise good list .

Your list isn't bad dude but needs slightly changing. You need two Big Meks to cover those Kanz and you need 3 Kanz per unit. Rest is alright.

1. Lootas are definately worth it. While your horde advances they can put out fire power on the enemy. This is either damaging vehicles i.e stun lock or weapon destroyed or open up vehicles so your Boyz can assault them.

2. 6 Kanz you might get away with, I'm dubious though if I am honest.

3. Deff Dread isn't worth it. Slow and takes time to get into assault. A smart player will leave the Deff Dred and fire at the Boyz or Lootas. Get Gretchin instead for what you said, these will win you the game unlike a Deff Dread.

4. Anti tank is a weakness as you said, but that's Orks for you. I would switch the Kommandos for more Killa Kanz.

First of all thank you mercer and MFletch for your feedback. I have modified the list a bit, taking into account what you have said.

HQ1: Big Mek ( + KFF)____________________________________________85
HQ2: Big Mek ( + KFF)____________________________________________85

Elite1: Lootas (8 + 1 Mek) ________________________________________135
Elite2: Lootas (8 + 1 Mek) ________________________________________135

Heavy1: KillaKans (3) ( + 3 Rokkits) _________________________________150
Heavy2: KillaKans (3) ( + 3 Rokkits) _________________________________150
Heavy3: KillaKans (3) ( + 3 Grotzookas) ______________________________135

Troop1: Shoota Boyz (30) ( + Nob + Bosspole + 3 Big Shootas) __________ 210
Troop2: Shoota Boyz (30) ( + Nob + Bosspole + 3 Big Shootas) __________ 210
Troop3: Grots (15) ( + 1 Runtheard) _______________________________ 55

Fast1: Deffkoptas (2) ( + 2 Buzzsaws + 2 Big Bomms) __________________150

_____________________________________________________________1500 pts

I took 2 koptas because I'm a bit scared of very-shooty Tau and IG armies and the buzzsaws offer some AT because I can fly in and hit some rear armour. (I'm fully aware that just 2 koptas won't save me, but maybe I can tie down an important unit for a turn or two... and I get to do a bit of bommin' which is good agains IG firing squads and nid swarms)

Take the meks out of the lootas and take lootas in their place. You'll want the extra shots.

Toxxic wrote:Take the meks out of the lootas and take lootas in their place. You'll want the extra shots.

Was thinking about that... are KMBs really not worth the extra AP?

DreadRazor wrote:

Toxxic wrote:Take the meks out of the lootas and take lootas in their place. You'll want the extra shots.

Was thinking about that... are KMBs really not worth the extra AP?

Not really. 1 shot needing 5+ to hit? The extra D3 shots you get will be better. Your potential for 18-54 shots a turn(2 units) will put the hurt on anything especially AV 13 and lower vehicles especially at 1500 points.

Also, run your koptas seperately. They work better that was with what you have planned for them. Don't be suprised if they don't live through a single game.

Toxxic wrote:

DreadRazor wrote:

Toxxic wrote:Take the meks out of the lootas and take lootas in their place. You'll want the extra shots.

Was thinking about that... are KMBs really not worth the extra AP?

Not really. 1 shot needing 5+ to hit? The extra D3 shots you get will be better. Your potential for 18-54 shots a turn(2 units) will put the hurt on anything especially AV 13 and lower vehicles especially at 1500 points.

Also, run your koptas seperately. They work better that was with what you have planned for them. Don't be suprised if they don't live through a single game.

Actually I plan to start them off in reserve and then use outflank to gain an advantage in T3-4. I know they are a prime target if I play them on turn 1 and even from reserve they will never last more than 2 turns.
I just feel like these types of armies are missing a 'surprise' element. My friend's IG army will just line themselves along the edge of the table as far away from me as possible and then Lass and Orbital Strike me to death.

2 deathkoptas aren't going to last more than two turns regardless of how you use them. Against guard and if you have the first turn, scout them and first turn assault something (In guard, those pesky Leman Russ tanks). If you don't get the first turn, definitely out flank. I use mine as bullet magnets. If my koptas are getting shot at, my mob of boyz aren't.

Like the new list.

Koptas are suicidal. This is fine if they scout and kill a tank first turn, which is quite likely.
I find even if you do not have first turn, if they turbo in their scout move and then find a wall they get shot at but survive long enough to kill something in your first turn.

A lot of people like to put Big Shootas in their Shoota Boyz Mobz, but think about this:

1: Any army facing a Kan Wall with Boyz behind will avoid getting within assault range, or they will try to get behind the Kanz and assault the Boyz from the rear to take away their shooting capability. The Big Shootas would be nice, but the REAL power and the reason for taking 30 Shoota Boyz over Slugga Boys is their 60 18 inch range shots. You will probably have to run a good bit with the Kanz and Boyz to get in range to use this incredible firepower. In the mean time you have 6 Big Shootas and 30 points not being used every turn you run.

2: 3 Big Shootas only add 3 more shooting attacks per Mob, and at BS 2, that's only 1 hit. Even if all 6 from both Mobz shoot, an MEQ squad will only take 6 hits and 4/3 wounds. 1, maybe 2 wounds for 30 points. That's 5 more Boyz with 5 wounds, 10 shots, and 2-3 CC attacks each. Just what I've been thinking lately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also like to take 3 Deffkoptas w/1 Buzzsaw, and maybe Buggies, but their #1 target is not always tanks. Use them to take out the Vindicare Assassin. That dude will snipe your Big Meks and ruin your kunnin' plan.

@MFletch: Is the general consensus that I am allowed to turbo during scout (maybe even bomm stuff)? I've read quite heated debates on the legality of this. Also I am fully aware that I have to read the terrain quite well to decide when/how to use the koptas.

@Ghenghis Jon: I see your point and I am considering taking them out. I'll pop some armour on the Meks and take a few more grots then.

Rulebook FAQ say turbos are allowed in scout move but stay 12'' away. This should give you problems if the enemy has put meat shields between you and the tanks.
The only heated debate I know of is that ravenwing do not get their turbo as it is ruled out in the codex and Grey Knights can not use their personal teleporters in the scout move for some reason. Both I feel are wrong calls by GW but are clearly the rules.

Actually I like big shootas as they add more options into your play. Being able to sit still and shoot 36'' is good in many situations like against 'nids for example or weirdly against hard to catch elder.

MFletch wrote:Rulebook FAQ say turbos are allowed in scout move but stay 12'' away. This should give you problems if the enemy has put meat shields between you and the tanks.
The only heated debate I know of is that ravenwing do not get their turbo as it is ruled out in the codex and Grey Knights can not use their personal teleporters in the scout move for some reason. Both I feel are wrong calls by GW but are clearly the rules.

Actually I like big shootas as they add more options into your play. Being able to sit still and shoot 36'' is good in many situations like against 'nids for example or weirdly against hard to catch elder.

Interesting... is it allowed to turbo over enemy units or must there be a constant 12'' gap? I.e. I turbo over a bunch of infantry and land behind cover somewhere 12'' away.
The main problem I see with koptas is that they could be either amazingly good or amazingly bad (actually if you look around that's kinda of a general ork thing ).

I'm still in two minds about either koptas or kommandos... If I take out the big shootas I get 30 points which makes 180 with the koptas... That's Snik + 9 kommandos (or 8 + scorcha).

You can turbo boost over units as you're a jetbike, so you fly over stuff. Just when you do a scout move you must be 12" away from the opponent.

Big Shootas are a staple in my lists, for the same reasons MFletch stated. Lots of Eldar around here, plus you have a chance of stunning transports (if you roll with luck like me ). They are also great for shooting down those annoying Land Speeders.

I personally take my mobs of Shootas in units of 20. I found after a lot of time of using mobs of 30, they were just too unwieldy to use tactically. I found my mobs were getting in their own way. I'm just mentioning this, I highly recommend playing lots of games consecutively using both mob sizes and come to your own conclusion. One nice thing is you will be able to form up a third mob, which means more troops for objectives and another target your enemy has to whittle down

I like the idea of the min squad of Kommandos. I normally take a full squad, and find they'll actually last more than an Alpha strike. It's fun to be annoying and hit them from the front and the back

My original plan was to 'push' shooty/weak CC armies towards the wall using the kommandos. The idea of an 'ambush' from behind could scare some into placing units closer to the center of the map. This means that I might have one less turn of running.

TBH I should be doing less planning and more playing, because that's the only way to really understand the game.

DreadRazor wrote:

TBH I should be doing less planning and more playing, because that's the only way to really understand the game.

This. More playtime, then do the thing humans do best: Learn from Mistakes.

Solid tactic using the Kommandoz to push your opponent up, which is another argument for taking a mob of 15: bigger footprint.

Ok, so third (probably final) version of the list is:

HQ1: Big Mek ( + KFF)____________________________________________85
HQ2: Big Mek ( + KFF)____________________________________________85

Elite1: Lootas (9) _______________________________________________135
Elite2: Lootas (9) _______________________________________________135
Elite3: Kommandos (12) ( + Snikrot)________________________________ 205

Heavy1: KillaKans (3) ( + 3 Rokkits) _________________________________150
Heavy2: KillaKans (3) ( + 3 Rokkits) _________________________________150
Heavy3: KillaKans (3) ( + 3 Scorchas) _______________________________ 120

Troop1: Shoota Boyz (20) ( + Nob + Bosspole + 2 Big Shootas) __________ 145
Troop2: Shoota Boyz (20) ( + Nob + Bosspole + 2 Big Shootas) __________ 145
Troop2: Shoota Boyz (20) ( + Nob + Bosspole + 2 Big Shootas) __________ 145

_____________________________________________________________1500 pts

I decided to take the big shootas to give me more power against low armour.
Also I'm trying 20 boy mobs first because I think they will give me extra flexibility.
I also feel that the flamers will be a bit more useful on the kanns than grotzookas. Cone templates are nice against swarming armies (nids, melee orks, tau kroot swarmers, etc).

General tactic:

Run towards the enemy until I am close, move+shoot one turn, waargh = (move+shoot)/run + assault next. When kommandos come in send them into the biggest unit of squishies. Probably 2 kans left by that point as well... so just pile those in too. Meks stand back with a bag of popcorn. Lootas pouring lead every turn.

Your Big Meks need a meat shield. Don't leave them unattached to a Mob or they will be targeted first. You invested the cost of 14 Boyz into each one.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:Your Big Meks need a meat shield. Don't leave them unattached to a Mob or they will be targeted first. You invested the cost of 14 Boyz into each one.

Yea, good point...

Is it worth then, getting a bosspoles for the Meks and having them as mob leaders instead of the nobs?

Keep those Grotzookas on the Kans! They're one of the best weapons in the codex. You'll love em. Skorchas should be put on Deff-Dreads.

I was going to advise you to use Rokkit Buggies instead of Deffkoptas, but you've taken them out anyways.

I definitely advise on taking the Big Shootas. Sometimes you REALLY need those S5 weapons. It can make all the difference in the world.

I advise NOT to put Bosspoles on the Big Meks. Why? Because when one of my Boyz squads starts to get low or is about to be assaulted, I usually shuffle the Big Mek away to join a different squad of Boyz. If you do that, the Boyz you leave behind won't have a Bosspole anymore!

Plus, the Big Mek can be singled out in CC, but the Nob cannot.

Good points, thank you...