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Hey guys, I have a metric gak-tonne of MW Brits painted up Mediterranian style (darker than Desert, to fit both Italy and NA) but figured I should get a few models to make them LW as well.

So I have bought some halftracks, 4 Achilles SP AT and an AOP to compliment my full 25pdr battery.

My question is this though, I am pretty much stuck to using the Fortress Europe book, since every other list out there is Normandy for late war. Is the Italy list even viable? Evertything is Vet, but I pay out the nose for stuff, compared to Turning Tides.

An army I am thinking of doing is 9 Sherman IIIs (3 command, 2 psquadrons of 3), 8 25pdrs, 4 M10 Achilles, 1500 pts for a tourney we have in November. Any advice? what would you change?

Wait, not sure what you wanted to make. Are you looking to expand into late war, or stay in mid war?

Monte Cassino was recently released, if that's the Italy LW lists you're referring to. If you want to stay mid-war, then North Africa also has a lot of mid-war British lists, in fact, the lists from the North Africa book are pretty much what you get for mid war Mediterranean Brits. The upcoming MW Burning Empires book has no British lists, it assumes you'll be using one of the North Africa lists.

Anything Veteran you'll be paying for, but there should be some variants that go down to Trained. In fact, I'm pretty sure there's a South African variant list for the North Africa Rifle Company that is Reluctant Veteran, which can be tricky to use, but has incredibly cheap units.

Also, in mid-war, if you hadn't guessed, the Sherman is still pretty good. Unless your opponent always takes the hideously expensive German heavies, the Sherman works well against all comers. If the heavies do hit the table, just make sure you move the TDs to flank so that if he shoots at the one, then no matter what you get side shots with the other.

I would also recommend going for Stuarts if you can take them, instead of that second platoon of Shermans. Being light tanks, the faster Stuarts are perfect for rushing forward to threaten an undefended objective.

Sorry I should have clarified. My army right now IS MW. I havea bunch of stuff to make it EW, namely the old BAR box, I just have to paint the Caunter (weird angled colors) scheme on those. For late war is my question..

However, for Late war, if I want tanks, and British, not Gooms or Poles, I need to use Fortress Europe and use the Italy options provided within. I was wondering if anyone else has experience with this list, as I see everyone and their dog using the Normandy lists, like Tyne and Tees, 7th AD, Canadians, etc. Ive yet to see a single AAR or a single post on using the Italy list in Fortress Europe. maybe its because the list sucks!!

Well my suggestion about Stuarts still applies.

Try: 3 HQ Shermans, 2 platoons of 3 Shermans, 3 Stuarts, 4 Achilles, and 4 25pdrs.

I know you lose the special rules for 8 guns, but you'll mainly want to use smoke bombardments to reduce the amount of hits your shermans take, any dug in infantry can be shot at with the main guns and co-ax MG, then assaulted. Any infantry in the open the Stuarts can pounce on with MG fire. Any tanks you'll get into a gun battle with, and the smoke helps with that too, and with AT 7 on Stuarts that almost always can get side shots in, you'll have more threats than most opponents can deal with.

Alternatively, drop the 3rd HQ Sherman and the 4 25pdrs, and take 4 Priests, the benefit to that is you get better firepower, a free observer Sherman that can keep up with your army, and have a bit of mobility in case you lose the observer and need to roll out for direct observation or fire. The extra firepower also makes them more reliable for killing or bailing out enemy tanks via bombardment.

But, the Stuarts are key. Shermans in late war are outclassed by a lot of things, so you'll find your advance halted by AT guns, heavy tanks, dug in infantry with AT weapons or pioneers, etc. But the Stuarts, being so fast (16" base move, instead of just 12", and 32" if they double) means they can quickly get around problem areas and into little concealed pockets of terrain from which they strike next turn. This forces your opponent to turn away assets that would go towards halting your Shermans to taking them out.

The upcoming MW Burning Empires book has no British lists, it assumes you'll be using one of the North Africa lists.

Wait...I was under the impression that Burning Empires was an EW supplement for the Mediterranean/Balkans that would allow you to use your MW or EW lists for the raiding-aces campaign part of it....?

Honestly, I'm not sure what Burning Empires is, I don't follow FoW releases that well.

Here's the list for Burning Empires, as provided by Battlefront -

Italian Briefing: Fucileri, Blackshirt, and Alpini forces.
Greek Briefings: Mechanised Battalion and Infantry Company.
German Briefings: SS, Gebirgsjäger, Fallschirmjäger and Luftlandesturm forces.
French Briefing: Infantry force playable as either pro-Axis Vichy or pro-Allied Free French.
British, Italian, French, German and American Raiding and Garrison Forces for Early and Mid War raiding battles.

I don't run Brits myself, and I intentionally run my US lists as Trained when I can. So take my comments with a grain of salt. But you should be able to make the Italy Vet lists work. I'm not sure that having so much artillery is necessarily a good thing, but on the other hand 25 pounders tend to be somewhat iffy in just a regular battery of four (due to the poor FP value).

Well, tossing in the full 8 gun battery is more because I have them all painted The tournament is in a month, and I have to build & paint 4 Achilles, AOP. I wonder if I order from Waitland if I can get Stuarts in time?

Thanks for the advice, will update as I get stuff done, and play a few test games Friday.

Yeah, I fun British Paras and soon a Polish/British Lorried Rifles, so I know how powerful the 8 gun batteries can be.

But, those Stuarts are just so critical, especially since you don't have any fireflies available to stay with your Shermans, just the Achilles. You're going to find your Shermans halted by every little threat, and 1-2 more Shermans won't help as you're waiting for support like observers and AT guns to move up into position before you expose your Shermans.

Also, I'm really not sure how to best use semi-indirect fire either. Probably smoke targets, expose the Shermans and Achilles at long range, then either weather the RoF shots at you as the enemy tanks move out of the smoke.

Vertrucio wrote:... as you're waiting for support like observers...

I think that's what the AOP is for.



When I'm playing my Germans, I HATE those things...

>.<

Have you looked at any of the PDF's on the FOW site? Those lists are ussualy tournament legal and give options for lists found no place else. I built my LW pioneer army from one of the PDF's and have had great sucess with it.

Yeah I had hoped that with Cassino there would be something non-Colonial in there for the Brits

I have a month to paint stuff up, so not the longest time, but the Stuart idea is very tempting.

Here is a question for you.

Tentative list is as follows:

3 HQ Sherman IIIs
3 Sherman IIIs
3 Sherman IIIs
25pdr battery, 8 guns, AOP
4 Achilles SPs

Something that Im still not 100% sure of deals with platoons and the 2 troops of guns. 8 gun batteries are 2 platoons, each troop has its own observer and troop cmd, and then there is the battery command and staff team. In the rules for them, it says that though they are 2 platoons, they are deployed and reserve, counts-as 1 platoon. So thats why you see Brit players plonking them down at once. Which is fine, so lets say in this case above, you see I have 5 platoons, but only count as 4 for reserves and deployment. So I have the magical "even-numbered platoons" for reserves right? Where it gets tricky is this.. Lets say I lose my Achilles squadron (likely since they are low armor) and one of my Sherman squadrons.. so I am down 2 platoons.. Lets say my opponent then drops some Sturmoviks one of the 4-gun troops, gets lucky and kills 2 guns, the troop cmd, and I fail my Morale Check and the Troop runs.

Am I below half? Technically, I have lost 3 platoons, even though they count as 4 for deployment and reserves only. So wuold I be under half strength for my company for losing a gun troop, or would they still count as AT half for the entire gun bettery and therefore Ive only lost 2 platoons.

The 8 gun batteries count as separate platoons for everything, except for deployment and reserves.

So yes, you would be under half strength.

Ok thats what I thought, nice to see a bit of confirmation as well. Trying the list out tonite, so we shall see how I fair.

I have a friend that plays late war Brits and he always has 8 guns. He also uses Crocodiles and those things are nasty. Not sure they fit in with what you're trying to do though. If you need some painting done I have a painting service and have tons of FOW stuff. Just PM if interested.

Nah I can't use Crocs because they aren't available to Italy. Also, I am good to go on painting.

However I got demolished Friday.. 3 turns running, my 25pdrs couldnt range in, even with the third attempt reroll the AOP gives out. Got massacred.

Always rough when your artillary won't co-operate. Shermans have a tough time in LW. I am not real familiar with the Brits but I know thier arty can be very effective with thier specials like murders and such. If you're able to use them Sherman Fireflys are a good way to match the heavy armor of other armies. With decent range I see people leave them sit and shoot while the rest of the platoon moves out. As long as you don't move them there is no penelty for not being in unit coherancy.

Sadly, no Fireflies in Italy either

Did you remember that 8 gun batteries can also reroll their first range in attempt?

The big problem with Italy lists is that you'll be facing non-Italy lists. And in Italy, you've now lost some of your most potent tank killers. In late war, the Sherman is just cannon fodder and you don't get enough of them for the points, nor do the British get 76 Shermans.

That list also doesn't have any mortar options, or any cheap arty that can drop smoke on problem targets. So you waste your 8 guns trying to drop smoke on targets instead of bombarding.

Then the 25 pdrs aren't actually all that good for killing dug in infantry and heavy targets, with only firepower 5+.

Italy has mortars.. they are the MKII, with 40 inch range and so on. Fortress Europe baby!

I thought the reroll for 8 guns was if you didnt use the fancy arty rules? i was trying to lay down double wide since he had Grenadiers in Halftracks all over the place.

Maybe I need to read my own rules a bit more lol. I guess we'll have to see.. I'm not going to repaint my guys, nor am I going to chintz out and use Normandy rules for guys that are clearly Italy colors. Thats like using Ultramrine models as Space Wolves.. that just aint happening with me.

Also remember that your Shermans, while not the most effective in LW AT, have the semi-indirect fire rule, allowing you to re-roll shots beyond 16" while not moving.

This can help in a pinch when you're hurling shells at long range at those half-tracks.

This tactic was employed against my German ally while playing MW North Africa; my Italian Bersaglieri watched in horror as 2 platoons of armor were shelled with impunity and thus destroyed lol!

ThirdUltra wrote:

The upcoming MW Burning Empires book has no British lists, it assumes you'll be using one of the North Africa lists.

Wait...I was under the impression that Burning Empires was an EW supplement for the Mediterranean/Balkans that would allow you to use your MW or EW lists for the raiding-aces campaign part of it....?

Your impression is correct. It is an EW supplement that adds some more mediterranean lists to EW and also has the raiding aces campaign.

Skriker

5+ Fp is kinda rough but they're still good for pinning that dug in infantry so that you can assault it. Maybe drop one of the gun batteries and explote some aircraft options to deal with enemy armor.

Yeah, I'm very sure that you get to reroll the first attempt to range in when you combine the batteries into one, regardless of whether you choose a stonk or murder bombardment.

It's one of the saving graces for the 25pdr, since with only Firepower 5+ instead of 4+, using it to dig out infantry is still problematic, same for hitting vehicles, but you make up for it by being able to range in a bit more easily, even more so with the AOP's rerolling the third attempt.

Nice I'll have to check that out. I have assembled 8 M3 halftracks to carry my Motor Rifle guys ( I know they are useless, but I had the models) and 2 White Scout Cars for the Motor Rifle HQ, so in the next month or so I will be working on those.

Any kind of artillary battery of 6 or more gets to re-roll misses. Pg 129 of the core rule book. Mortars always get 1 free re-roll when attempting to range in regaurdless of their number. Also remember if you have a staff team you automatically hit a target that was ranged in on in the previous turn and can continue to do so until a new target i selected.

Actually, for All Guns Repeat, the spotter that initially ranged in needs to still be alive to call in the repeat order.

Also, British 8 gun batteries have special rules that differ from normal artillery rules. When they have an 8 gun battery all firing together, first they get to reroll the first attempt to range in, then when ranged in they can choose between a Stonk or Murder bombardment. I forget which is which, but one mode drops a double wide template, and the other allows you to reroll misses. Lastly, the two 4 gun batteries can still fire separately from each other, but also use either spotter. This makes the 8 gun battery quite flexible, which helps make up for the 25pdr's lack of lethality.

They do have a lot of options. I have a friend that playes them.It's been a while since we've played but I remember that by taking the 25 pounders it gave him the option of taking a battery of better arty. Also if I am not mistaken don't they have a fairly long range in direct fire compared to other arty pieces like 105's? I know they have turntables so there is no penalty for turning to face the target. It also improves thier stats. Maybe playing them just a bit closer to the front to take advantage of this could be an option.

MrJody wrote:They do have a lot of options. I have a friend that playes them.It's been a while since we've played but I remember that by taking the 25 pounders it gave him the option of taking a battery of better arty. Also if I am not mistaken don't they have a fairly long range in direct fire compared to other arty pieces like 105's? I know they have turntables so there is no penalty for turning to face the target. It also improves thier stats. Maybe playing them just a bit closer to the front to take advantage of this could be an option.

Some brit lists do included medium 5.5" artillery units that you can buy as long as you also have an equal or greater number of 25pdrs in the army. The 5.5" guns are nasty, but I have found including both 26pdrs and 5.5"ers in the same force eats up too many points unless you are playing 2000+ points on the table. You then end up needing to rely on artillery to cover too many bases for you. Personally I have found that any time I rely on artillery to play a major role, it lets me down every time. :( Just my lousy artillery luck. Heck went through a couple months of the last league I was in with my 25pdrs not destroying a single enemy stand/vehicle. That should give you an example of my luck with artillery. Hahahahahaha

Skriker