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So I expect this thread to get flamed quite quickly because I am going to say some things that will get a "nuh-uh" response as I am not the conventional player.

I have been playing Daemonhunters for a while now and while I appreciate the new codex ther are a few things I think would have made more sense from a fluff perspective.

Basically I hate seeing GKs as just "more marines" because that's not how they used to be.

No Razorbacks.
Rhinos only for Inquisitional forces...such vehicles are beneath GKs and wouldn't be theri mode of transport into battle
Shrouding maintained as secondary psychic power in addition to astral aim for purgators...grants night fighting rules.
Dreads only Elites...only venerable...makes sense...and forces you to choose between them and purifiers and paladins...unless certain HQs are taken
WS 5...very important...I never even considered I'd lose this...there is no grounds for WS 4 GKs
GK Brother Captain closer to 100pts
Dedicated StormRavens...GK only
Dedicated Land Raiders...GK only
AP 6 on Psylencers
Psylencers ignore Invulnerable saves but don't wound daemons on a 4+
Jokaero Weaponsmith turned into "Techpriest" using same rule set but different fluff (This is how I counts-as without using d*** dirty apes)
Stern gets Grand Strategy...Stern is a man with Grand Master status that refuses to take the title.
While I think allies could have worked as a one way street of certain templar and guard units into GKs its not worth trying with changing codecies.(Not as need with Inquisitional forces now present)
Justicars can still take Artificer Armor. These are honoured leaders and would get access to better materials..also makes you think twice about investing in it due to perils
Servitors take up heavy slot...no mindlock if techmarine or inquisitor is with them...reduced mindlock if techpriest has been bought for them.
Daemonhost beefed up with increase in points...you only take them as a squad by themselves anyways and making them bigger ad scarier increases their usage when wanted

What I am trying to accomplish is the way GKs play...from a fluff perspective you would never see a single GK ever...much less a squad or army of them...and if you see an army of them...you're probably a daemon in the eye of terror.

Tell me your thoughts...let's not get too involved because things are as they are...I just believe a few tweaks should have been made and hindsight is helping to see how we could have avoided certain really annoying and bland netlisting for GKs

You say that you don't want GKs to be "more marines", but you want to see the Brother-Captain down to the same price as a Marine Captain?

Truthfully, I'd say that you've basically explained that the 3rd Edition GK codex was better. No Rhinos, the Shrouding goes back to being essentially night fighting, and everything has WS 5. The only difference is that now all these WS5 models now have the means to get Strength 5 with force weapons.

I really disagree with the removal of Rhinos for GKs. As protective as they are, in many cases, they only last a turn or two because of the AV11. So unless you intend to warp your GKs straight onto the battlefield (which is arguably worse, because now they can scatter into terrain and die, and then can't assault the turn they come in), we're back to the 3rd Edition style of foot slogging for 3-4 turns to get to the other side of the field, which even with the Shrouding, will mean that entire squads may very well die to AP3 fire before they even make it halfway across.

Except now at higher points levels we have Grand Strategy for Infiltrating and Outflanking. We have Interceptors.

I am applying the 3rd edition way of GKs to the current codex...there are more options than you're presenting. You simply haven't thought of all the possibilities...Nor have I listed all the possibilities or rules necessary to balance out these things I wished to see more of.

Old Nemesis rules were also pretty good...Force Weapons aren't everywhere...maybe they needed to be altered but the power based upon rank made a lot of sense. S6 did not...though it was nice and honestly I preferred it over power weapons.

Also...I said closer to 100pts...probably more near 125


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I only put shrouding in...as a power...just for purgators.

There is one thing I wish the codex would still have. Inquisitorial stormtrooper troop choices.

gaovinni wrote:There is one thing I wish the codex would still have. Inquisitorial stormtrooper troop choices.

Coteaz + Warrior + Carapace Armor + Hot-Shot Lasgun = Stormtrooper Troops choice

ductvader wrote:

gaovinni wrote:There is one thing I wish the codex would still have. Inquisitorial stormtrooper troop choices.

Coteaz + Warrior + Carapace Armor + Hot-Shot Lasgun = Stormtrooper Troops choice

Worse stats, do not a Stormtrooper make.

Worse stats are compensated by the diversity of Henchmen squads though...

ductvader wrote:

gaovinni wrote:There is one thing I wish the codex would still have. Inquisitorial stormtrooper troop choices.

Coteaz + Warrior + Carapace Armor + Hot-Shot Lasgun = Stormtrooper Troops choice

That's the problem. I don't want coteaz.

Noir wrote:

ductvader wrote:

gaovinni wrote:There is one thing I wish the codex would still have. Inquisitorial stormtrooper troop choices.

Coteaz + Warrior + Carapace Armor + Hot-Shot Lasgun = Stormtrooper Troops choice

Worse stats, do not a Stormtrooper make.

Ahmen to that, there was really no need to remove the Inquisition from the army. In the past GK were never a stand alone force, they were allies to other imperial forces. It is also silly that if people want to even come close to using their old armies you have to see multiple Coteaz clones with troops that are not as good as they used to be.

I would have like the cover to say "Codex: Inquisition".

HQ: Inquisitor

Elites: Grey Knights (terminaters only), Deathwatch Kill Teams, Sisters of Battle

Troops: Stormtroopers

FA: Variants of the Elites

HS: LRs, SRs, Dreads

Things I wish weren't in the current book:

Matt Ward, Dreadknights, Any list allowing more than 10 GK models on the table at a time.

I simply believe GW needs to get off the "this hq opens this slot" and get more generalized hqs to open force orgs...like space marine bike captains.

taking a gk inquisitor should open all henchmen to troops

and so forth

This HQ opens this option is absolutely the GW wave of the future. You will see more and more of this I think.

For my money I would like the inquisitors to be worth spit. TBH the only reason to take them is to pad out a low points cost GK army with a few cheaper models. I would like to see some access to proper sized units of proper troops. I don't want to be greedy and take Leman Russ tanks and so on, but a squad of 20 guardsmen would be reasonable, 10 models or so of assorted rubbish is pointless. Jokaero are the only henchmen worth bothering with IMHO.

I agree on razorbacks, etc. If they are going to go down that route then let the GK have the full run of predators, vindicators, etc. Their limits on vehicles are decidedly odd, why razorbacks and rhinos but no land speeders. If they use vehicles they surely should have access to the whole lot?

DeffDred wrote:Things I wish weren't in the current book:

Matt Ward, Dreadknights, Any list allowing more than 10 GK models on the table at a time.

Except for apocalypse battles. 11 GK models would be ok in those situations I think.

Isengard wrote:This HQ opens this option is absolutely the GW wave of the future. You will see more and more of this I think.

For my money I would like the inquisitors to be worth spit. TBH the only reason to take them is to pad out a low points cost GK army with a few cheaper models. I would like to see some access to proper sized units of proper troops. I don't want to be greedy and take Leman Russ tanks and so on, but a squad of 20 guardsmen would be reasonable, 10 models or so of assorted rubbish is pointless. Jokaero are the only henchmen worth bothering with IMHO.

I agree on razorbacks, etc. If they are going to go down that route then let the GK have the full run of predators, vindicators, etc. Their limits on vehicles are decidedly odd, why razorbacks and rhinos but no land speeders. If they use vehicles they surely should have access to the whole lot?

I am disagreeing on this and will even go the point jakaero is one of the average retinue options. The best for ranged attack is obviously 3 servitors for 30 poins or or 6+ psykers for 60+ points. You can obviously add 2 jakaero in there but it becomes so expensive then.

ductvader wrote:I simply believe GW needs to get off the "this hq opens this slot" and get more generalized hqs to open force orgs...like space marine bike captains.

taking a gk inquisitor should open all henchmen to troops

and so forth

+1 to this

I really...really!...don't want to have to take Coteaz in order to not have a GK model on the table...

as for DreadKnights...I like them so...

Hmm I wish they had been done as as booklet like the assassins codex in 2nd, chapter dexes in 3rd. Entry of the terminator squad and PA squad. Any Imperial army may take 1 of these in an elites slot, some nifty but not OTT powers, enough to justify the terminator squad being 50-100% more expensive than standard terminators.
Makes GK's rare, special, as their few number reflects, not an army in of themselves. Maybe a full army as an appendix in codex daemons for a nemesis army.

For their FAQ a video of Mr. Ward being taken out and begging for forgiveness while hassled by chavs doing chavvy things would be a start

Fluff wise, it's difficult to change the codex to how it should be as they are really only there to combat daemons and having them like that would cripple them against most armies.

What I would have liked to see is a better set of special rules for the nemesis force weapons. For example, the swords give +1 strength, halberds just +1 initiative, falchions to work like lightning claws. The hammers are fine as they are but the warding stave could perhaps have been a 3+ invul save that works like a storm shield. Keep them all as force weapons, though.

I would have preferred GK squads to have a psychic power that gives them an invul save of 4+ instead of having hammerhand but is cast at the start of a particular phase and only lasts for that phase (so, can be used against shooting attacks but not then CC and vice versa). And hammerhand should be a character/HQ only power that doubles the strength like the old Daemonhunters codex.

The change of fluff in GK dex was completely unnecessary. Destroy their mystique and make them vanilla marines++ was pretty much all it did.

Ward didn't understand how iconic WS5 and true grit was for GK. Or maybe he did and specifically chose to take them out in favor of power weapons that don't help kill demons at all compared to WS5, S6 and +1A. Good job Ward.


Silly things include:
Orangutans. Wtf.
Psi crap. Really? You cannot simply add psi in front of things like you did with blood in blood angles codex.

Blood angles! Prepare your blood talons and rev up your blood swords! The blood powers of the blood chalice shall grant you silly FNP for no reason and always remember that our blood raiders can bloody durp strike now!

Oh wait, same author.

If you think your rage is bad, wait for the Necron codex.
It seems that instead of one motif word being reused in every wargear, we'll probably have awesome 70s sci fi names instead like doomsday cannon and heat rays and stuff lol. And can you imagine weapons called tesla? rofl.
I mean seriously, who the heck comes up with this stuff. I've seen more creativity in sunbathing rock.

terranarc wrote:
It seems that instead of one motif word being reused in every wargear, we'll probably have awesome 70s sci fi names instead like doomsday cannon and heat rays and stuff lol. And can you imagine weapons called tesla? rofl.

Yes I can. Gauss = Tesla. Its the same thing, just a different unit of measurement.

And tesla weapons aren't new. in C&C:RA they had tesla coils, tesla troopers, tesla power plants....

Also, what's wrong with doomsday cannon and heat ray?

Hey, C&C tesla weapons were symbolically deep man. They were the soviet's counterpart to Einstein's what ever the hell he felt like inventing technology. Plus I mean.. they're soviets. Cmon.

But doomsday cannon? Heat rays? You might as well start calling everything mega blasters and super lasers.

There really is something awesome and fluff-fundamental about cool names like say, phylactery. Or even the age old gauss flayer. Once upon a time, sci fi was but a wee infant and writers didn't have the creativity to make up names beyond the blunt adjectives of a 9 year old's vocabulary.

But I digress....

Re-read op and I gotta say, some changes would make a huge difference in the presentation of the GK dex.

Jokaero Weaponsmith turned into "Techpriest" using same rule set but different fluff (This is how I counts-as without using d*** dirty apes)
Huh.. can't believe no one else has ever though about that. That's a pretty nice alternative to a monkey with sh*t for brains that for some reason, inquisitors aren't genocide-ing.
Maybe take it a step further and call them weapon magos or something. A rank dedicated to improving/polishing weapons. Not a monkey that flings poop around and magically upgrades your wargear.

Dedicated marine vehicles...GK only
Seriously. Would it have been so hard to write a line like "Only GKs may board the rhino/razor/raider/ect."

WS 5...very important...I never even considered I'd lose this...there is no grounds for WS 4 GKs
Old GK > new GK. You could probably write a college essay on how much of a buck up Ward is.

terranarc wrote:Hey, C&C tesla weapons were symbolically deep man. They were the soviet's counterpart to Einstein's what ever the hell he felt like inventing technology. Plus I mean.. they're soviets. Cmon.

But doomsday cannon? Heat rays? You might as well start calling everything mega blasters and super lasers.

There really is something awesome and fluff-fundamental about cool names like say, phylactery. Or even the age old gauss flayer. Once upon a time, sci fi was but a wee infant and writers didn't have the creativity to make up names beyond the blunt adjectives of a 9 year old's vocabulary.

But I digress....

Re-read op and I gotta say, some changes would make a huge difference in the presentation of the GK dex.

Jokaero Weaponsmith turned into "Techpriest" using same rule set but different fluff (This is how I counts-as without using d*** dirty apes)
Huh.. can't believe no one else has ever though about that. That's a pretty nice alternative to a monkey with sh*t for brains that for some reason, inquisitors aren't genocide-ing.
Maybe take it a step further and call them weapon magos or something. A rank dedicated to improving/polishing weapons. Not a monkey that flings poop around and magically upgrades your wargear.

Dedicated marine vehicles...GK only
Seriously. Would it have been so hard to write a line like "Only GKs may board the rhino/razor/raider/ect."

WS 5...very important...I never even considered I'd lose this...there is no grounds for WS 4 GKs
Old GK > new GK. You could probably write a college essay on how much of a buck up Ward is.

Jokaeros aren't monkeys...they're actually a species of xeno with a natural affinity for technology.
But yeah, it is pretty silly I admit. I mean can't they make them a bit more...extraterrestrial? Nothing much, just like an extra eye or six or something.

WS5 is a must for GK. They are GK. They are the elite. They Deserve it.

And someone fix the damned dreadknight. It's possibly the most ridiculous looking model of all time.

Dreadnoughts should be either elite or Heavy, not both. You shouldn't be able to field 6 dreads armed with TL autocannons...that have Psi-Bolts.

Also OT, Einstein invented nuclear technology...well, he participated anyway along with a bunch of other scientists anyway.

And phylactery isn't a made up word...it's from the middle ages, and is essentially any magical charm or amulet (Oh, the irony that it is used by the necrons!)
They also took it from D&D, where it is used by a lich to store a piece of his soul.

Heat ray is pretty much self describing term - its a beam of concentrated heat radiation that melts anything it touches. I don't see anyone complaining about the DE heat lance.

Yeah death ray is an overdone term...though it could be worse. It could be something really pretentious and stupid sounding like "Thanatos cannon" or Hades Launcher or some crap like that.
Doomsday cannon...yeah I got nothing. And it is pretty misleading. For a weapon that has the word "doomsday" in it you'd think it would be stronger than a Demolisher cannon.

terranarc wrote:Re-read op and I gotta say, some changes would make a huge difference in the presentation of the GK dex.

Jokaero Weaponsmith turned into "Techpriest" using same rule set but different fluff (This is how I counts-as without using d*** dirty apes)
Huh.. can't believe no one else has ever though about that. That's a pretty nice alternative to a monkey with sh*t for brains that for some reason, inquisitors aren't genocide-ing.
Maybe take it a step further and call them weapon magos or something. A rank dedicated to improving/polishing weapons. Not a monkey that flings poop around and magically upgrades your wargear.

Techpriest just fits in well...especially if you're trying to run an OX force. Itexplains his suckiness in close combat while retaining good reasoning for his uber shooting rules. You can also present grounds for the digital weapons and invulnerable save.

AND...GW could have made some moneyof yet another model (that they would have overpriced) that people would have regardlessly bought out of coolness.


Thanks to all posters...I just had to get some things off my chest about the change.

The only thing missing from the GK codex was a Deathwatch Space Marine unit for the Ordo Xenos.

I would have preferred no Matt Ward