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Well the title says it all. Why should the Avatar count as a daemon? If you possess deep knowledge of what takes place at the sacrifice of the young king that justifies this fine. But I cant see how anything happens other than the animation of an object, namely the avatars shell, with the spirit and flesh of the young king. SO please give your answers and lets enjoy this.

I dont see how the Avatar should count as a daemon. I feel that it is a complete toss in and in no real way represents fluff OR tabletop.

What is the Avatar an avatar of? Khaine, the Eldar god (read warp entity) of killiness. Game mechanic wise, there's no difference between warp entities and daemons (like ruinous powers daemons).

Also too, as you can tell from the name the Avatar is closely related to the ruinous power with the snappy catchphrase, Khorne.

I thought it was classed as one anyways since it's inception...

Of course it should count as one, because it IS one.

It's exactly as much of a daemon as a Bloodthirster, and actually has fairly simliar views on a lot of things.

Ultimately, it's the manifested avatar of a warp being in the physical realm.
So, daemon.

Yes.

If an Eldar Avatar counts as a daemon then shouldn't a Sisters of Battle living saint be as well? But instead they all count as monsterous creatures.

But the rules for the Avatar actually say it's a daemon, it's what gives it its invulnerable save. The Living Saint is a different process not a shard of a warp entity manifested in the physical realm.

Zakiriel wrote:If an Eldar Avatar counts as a daemon then shouldn't a Sisters of Battle living saint be as well?

She's only as much a daemon as Kharn is, which is to say, not much of one.

Yes.
It is a fragment of a god, reanimated by the sacrifice of a worthy subject, into a host shell.

Daemon.

Because the Eldar War God is a daemon lol. It spretty obvious and straitforward in the fluff.

Questionable, imo. It is technically a form of daemon, but it's been explicitly referred to as a daemon of the materium as opposed to the immaterium. The usual solution to a daemon is to banish it back to the Warp. But you can't do that with the Avatar because it was never in the Warp to begin with.

I think you could banish its summoned soul, leaving the body an empty shell.

Warp entity taking a physical shell, pretty much a daemon to me. And it has always been one.
Summoning it even requires the sacrifice of an Exarch, pretty similar to, you know, a daemon.

An avatar would count because it is not native to this plane of existence. Someone who would complain about this would be someone who thinks that the Grey Knights have killed his avatar too often...

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:An avatar would count because it is not native to this plane of existence. Someone who would complain about this would be someone who thinks that the Grey Knights have killed his avatar too often...

Like everyone else you mean?

n0t_u wrote:But the rules for the Avatar actually say it's a daemon, it's what gives it its invulnerable save. The Living Saint is a different process not a shard of a warp entity manifested in the physical realm.

I think a more apt question would be to ask why haven't all models that count as Daemons been granted the EW USR. Sure the Avatar was probably unlucky that it's codex came out before the daemon codex. However, it doesn't make sense that later entries like Kheradruakh are given all the weaknesses but not all of the main buffs.

Greyish wrote:

n0t_u wrote:But the rules for the Avatar actually say it's a daemon, it's what gives it its invulnerable save. The Living Saint is a different process not a shard of a warp entity manifested in the physical realm.

I think a more apt question would be to ask why haven't all models that count as Daemons been granted the EW USR. Sure the Avatar was probably unlucky that it's codex came out before the daemon codex. However, it doesn't make sense that later entries like Kheradruakh are given all the weaknesses but not all of the main buffs.

The Avatar has Eternal Warrior
Eldar Codex is the first book the name for this rule appears. (Before it just says "The model is immune to ID"

WD 127

When Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Bloody Handed God of the Eldar, fought with Slaanesh the Lord of Pleasure, he was quickly overwhelmed and his energy captured by the newborn God. For the Bloody Handed God was as much a part of Slaanesh as of Khorne - being a product of that part of the Eldar nature which finds gratification in murder and pleasure in bloody violence. Khorne the Blood God, the Patron of War, Murder and Battle, roared with rage to discover one of his own taken from him in this way

Pilau Rice wrote:

WD 127

When Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Bloody Handed God of the Eldar, fought with Slaanesh the Lord of Pleasure, he was quickly overwhelmed and his energy captured by the newborn God. For the Bloody Handed God was as much a part of Slaanesh as of Khorne - being a product of that part of the Eldar nature which finds gratification in murder and pleasure in bloody violence. Khorne the Blood God, the Patron of War, Murder and Battle, roared with rage to discover one of his own taken from him in this way

Woah woah woah! Fluff slap in the face!

Yes.

Khaine is from the warp. Avatars are a part of Khaine. Ergo, The Avatar is from the warp.

Daemons are also from the warp. Ergo, The Avatar is a Daemon.

Jackster wrote:

Greyish wrote:

n0t_u wrote:But the rules for the Avatar actually say it's a daemon, it's what gives it its invulnerable save. The Living Saint is a different process not a shard of a warp entity manifested in the physical realm.

I think a more apt question would be to ask why haven't all models that count as Daemons been granted the EW USR. Sure the Avatar was probably unlucky that it's codex came out before the daemon codex. However, it doesn't make sense that later entries like Kheradruakh are given all the weaknesses but not all of the main buffs.

The Avatar has Eternal Warrior
Eldar Codex is the first book the name for this rule appears. (Before it just says "The model is immune to ID"

The Eldar codex does indeed use the Eternal Warrior rule but it's only used with the rules of the Phoenix Lords. It is not in either in the Avatar's unit description or its entry in the bestiary. Furthermore, the 'Invulnerable' rule in C:CD only affects units in the daemon army. While the Avatar is affected by weapons that also affect Daemon rule it is not inclusive of this rule nor does it have any similar Invulnerable rule of it's own. It would need this noted in it's special rules section, much like how the Fearless rule is included.

Living Saint is not a Daemon because it's a manifestation of the Emperor's power. However psykery the Emperor might be, he's not in the Warp (yet).

Greyish wrote:

Jackster wrote:

Greyish wrote:

n0t_u wrote:But the rules for the Avatar actually say it's a daemon, it's what gives it its invulnerable save. The Living Saint is a different process not a shard of a warp entity manifested in the physical realm.

I think a more apt question would be to ask why haven't all models that count as Daemons been granted the EW USR. Sure the Avatar was probably unlucky that it's codex came out before the daemon codex. However, it doesn't make sense that later entries like Kheradruakh are given all the weaknesses but not all of the main buffs.

The Avatar has Eternal Warrior
Eldar Codex is the first book the name for this rule appears. (Before it just says "The model is immune to ID"

The Eldar codex does indeed use the Eternal Warrior rule but it's only used with the rules of the Phoenix Lords. It is not in either in the Avatar's unit description or its entry in the bestiary. Furthermore, the 'Invulnerable' rule in C:CD only affects units in the daemon army. While the Avatar is affected by weapons that also affect Daemon rule it is not inclusive of this rule nor does it have any similar Invulnerable rule of it's own. It would need this noted in it's special rules section, much like how the Fearless rule is included.

Woops, my bad, was thinking about the phoenix lords.

Don't be fooled by the husk on the Golden Throne, The Emperor is most definitely a warp being at this point. The Living Saints aren't daemons because they're more akin to possessed beings. No mortal is sacrificed to bring forth an avatar of a god, there's no warp creature that's entering reality. It's a normal human, temporarily infused with a tiny bit of the Emperor's power.

If you really want to get heretical though, I would classify the Primarchs as essentially daemon princes from conception. They're part warp-stuff, part mortal, not because they're possessed, but because it's their natural form. The Emperor would have given up a tiny chunk of his life-force permanently to create each one them (explains how they each seem to represent an aspect of his personality, and why he stopped at 20 instead of making a super-army). The scant evidence for this contains some spoilers...



Interestingly enough, were this true, it would support the idea that the Primarchs will all return for the Final Battle/End Times/Whatever. It's impossible (I think) to permanently kill a daemon prince; you really are just banishing them temporarily. I don't know how it would work, but hypothetically you could "summon" the missing/dead Primarchs to return, if you knew what you were doing.

Well the GK codex FAQ says that we take avatars as daemons


What counts as a Daemons?

..... sth sth ... and the Avatar.

From the 4th Ed. Eldar codex:

"To all intents and purposes, an Avatar is a Daemon and will therefore be affected by weapons and abilities that affect Daemons."