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Myth: The American colonists had nothing to lose but their chains

The American War of Independence began as nothing of the sort.

It was essentially an argument between loyalist and radical British subjects over trade and taxes, only gradually acquiring the rhetoric of civil rights and liberties. Even today that argument is mired in chauvinism.

London protested that a derisory £1,400-a-year in revenue was being gathered from the 13 colonies to pay for having been rescued by Britain from French autocracy in the Seven Years War.

To call this rescue "absolute despotism", as the Americans did, was absurd. The protested Stamp Acts were imposed throughout the empire, as were other trade restrictions, while the colonists enjoyed their own assemblies and were for the most part autonomous.

As a colony with self-governing rights, America was far better treated than Ireland.

(see full article here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15428024)

No gak. Every American Child knows that the massive lead up to the nationalist thinking of the colonies was the massive taxes imposed unto us.

And second thing, The Irish didn't like the Engish. They were just to close to rebel.

Chowderhead wrote:No gak. Every American Child knows that the massive lead up to the nationalist thinking of the colonies was the massive taxes imposed unto us.

And second thing, The Irish didn't like the British. They were just to close to rebel.

I would've thought the anger from the Irish was more aimed at the English specifically rather than the Welsh and the Scottish as well.

When I say British, I mean the English. I'll edit it.

MrDwhitey wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:No gak. Every American Child knows that the massive lead up to the nationalist thinking of the colonies was the massive taxes imposed unto us.

And second thing, The Irish didn't like the British. They were just to close to rebel.

I would've thought the anger from the Irish was more aimed at the English specifically rather than the Welsh and the Scottish as well.

Most Americans don't know the difference.

Chowderhead wrote:When I say British, I mean the English. I'll edit it.

Oh fair enough then. It's the opposite of the usual though, which is a nice change. "English = everyone in Britain" is what I usually see.

I also wonder if it easily be a case of the Irish hating all those damned redcoats from that big island that keep coming over and cracking skulls, but I have no idea if the Government at the time put Welsh or Scottish regiments into Ireland. I know they've put Welsh ones in during the 20th century, but prior to that it wouldn't suprise me if the prevalent thought was something akin to "We can't trust the Welsh/Scottish to police the Irish".

Of course it wouldn't, because you're a Welsh bigot, giving voice to the usual anti-English prejudices. There were Scots and Welsh involved in the administration of Ireland. A great many of the British settlers in Ireland were Scottish, hence the Scots influence on Ulster.

The English certainly didn't shy away from utilizing Scot troops elsewhere. I don't remember the exact breakdown but don't scots historically make up te largest percentage of British troops. And if not are certainly disproportionate to their actual population.

Albatross wrote:Of course it wouldn't, because you're a Welsh bigot, giving voice to the usual anti-English prejudices. There were Scots and Welsh involved in the administration of Ireland. A great many of the British settlers in Ireland were Scottish, hence the Scots influence on Ulster.

Thanks! Both parents are English, but the damned fools moved here before I was born so I get called Welsh. I actually greatly dislike this damn place.

Being a "practically" self governing assemblies sounds great on paper, it still did not change the fact that they were governed by the crown, taxed by the grown, and for their own purposes "occupied" by the crown.

They were self-governed as far as the crown allowed it, and if the strange guy in London did not like a law he could strike it. And furthermore they had no say in the actual affairs of Britain. They were taxes as subject to the crown, but did not have representation in the House of Lords or Commons. That is where the little "no taxation without representation" came from. If the were self-governed, then why should they have to pay a tax to someone else? And just because the tax was levied on everyone does not mean it was a fair tax to levy.

A lot of the problems between the colonies and the crown can be found in the way the Constitution and the Bill of Rights was written. The right not to have to harbor soldiers (as the colonists had to do with British soldiers, which included feeding them as well, and sleeping in the barn while the soldiers slept in your bed). Due process, actual democracy (or the best alternative in the form of a Republic), and whatnots were something that the colonists wanted for themselves.

And what is this gak about the British rescuing us from the French? The 7 Years War (or French and Indian war as it is often know over here) was started by the French and the British in order to control more territories. The crown did not rescue us from the French, we were the pawns in a power struggle between the French and the British. It was not about "save the poor colonists", it was about "we must have control over the land, resources, spices, gold, etc..." (pretty much the same reason wars are being waged today.

So to restate your original argument:

"The colonists were dragged through a war that we helped create, had to feed and house our soldiers while we fought it, and then got pissed when we taxed them after that? How ghastly of those chaps..."

Can't possibly see why they revolted...

Actually if you take an objective position on how and why the American revolution occurred, you'll probably find that taxes weren't at the heart of the issue. you'll also find that Americans were offered seats in both houses of parliament IIRC.

AustonT wrote: Actually if you take an objective position on how and why the American revolution occurred, you'll probably find that taxes weren't at the heart of the issue. you'll also find that Americans were offered seats in both houses of parliament IIRC.

I mistakenly was referring to virtual representation.


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The thing I'm more more certain about is that the Revolution wasn't because of taxes. It was more likely agitated by growing unemployment and poverty caused by Parliments restriction of Colonial currency. As the taxes could not have been collected without the active aid of colonials.

as someone of mostly Irish blood I can say that we hate because we are hated on.


The Irish are the most fun having folks, till you mess with our family or start talking religion or soccer. The Irish temper is god awful though. I need to give myself time outs or I will get in trouble with the missus. The temper stops any inhibition, words spill forth like toxic waste. I have goteen in lots of trouble over the years, and have just now began to finally get it under some sort of control.

Irishmen during the Spanish Armada War with Britain, saw some strange Spanish people end up on their shores, they grabbed their clubs and beat to death anyone that had a funny accent and didn't speak English.

Most of my school knows why the American Revolution started. Helk they even know why the Civil War started.
Plus their is a little bit more to the American Revolution than people thought.

Asherian Command wrote:Irishmen during the Spanish Armada War with Britain, saw some strange Spanish people end up on their shores, they grabbed their clubs and beat to death anyone that had a funny accent and didn't speak English.

Most of my school knows why the American Revolution started. Helk they even know why the Civil War started.
Plus their is a little bit more to the American Revolution than people thought.

they beat them cause they were raping the women. My Dad looks Spanish more than Irish, and both his parents were 100% Irish.

DIDM wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Irishmen during the Spanish Armada War with Britain, saw some strange Spanish people end up on their shores, they grabbed their clubs and beat to death anyone that had a funny accent and didn't speak English.

Most of my school knows why the American Revolution started. Helk they even know why the Civil War started.
Plus their is a little bit more to the American Revolution than people thought.

they beat them cause they were raping the women. My Dad looks Spanish more than Irish, and both his parents were 100% Irish.

The Irish hated everyone XD

Wolfstan wrote:London protested that a derisory £1,400-a-year in revenue was being gathered from the 13 colonies to pay for having been rescued by Britain from French autocracy in the Seven Years War.

It's a bit of a stretch to claim the British were over there fighting to protect the colonists. They cared about the strategic power the colonies offered them, that there happened to be people who gained or suffered was an entirely peripheral issue.

As such, charging the colonies for their defence was ridiculous.

A bit like the proposals to charge for liberating Iraq, really...

Melissia wrote:

MrDwhitey wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:No gak. Every American Child knows that the massive lead up to the nationalist thinking of the colonies was the massive taxes imposed unto us.

And second thing, The Irish didn't like the British. They were just to close to rebel.

I would've thought the anger from the Irish was more aimed at the English specifically rather than the Welsh and the Scottish as well.

Most Americans don't know the difference.

Most of the differences aren't real.

It's true that taxes weren't the heart of the issue. Really they were the trigger for the powder keg. American's were actually really PO'd at Britain following the Seven Years War for a number of reasons. Namely the British laws refusing settlement west of Appalachia(a right Americans saw as the hard won spoils of war) and continued Indian raids against American settlements that they felt the British were not doing much about.

Americans filled a lot of boots in the French and Indian wars, and back then it's absurd for us to expect them to fully comprehend the scale of the larger Seven Years War when Europe was 3000 miles away. They didn't like that they were being charged for the war when they didn't start it, and didn't even consider it over with Indians still raiding the frontier until 1768. It's their homes and they largely came out of the war feeling Britain wasn't helping them defend the colonies (which isn't really that true but that's how they saw it).

Throw in some Enlightenment philosophy, a large group of people heavily detached politically and religiously from their controlling state and viva la revolution. Also helps that American's viewed taxation without representation as a violation not just of their philosophical rights but of the British Bill of Rights, and this is what you get. EDIT: Americans were never offered seats in parliament. A letter was sent from some members of the House of Lords I believe that said they'd get the seats, but no one ever planned to actually give them. It was hoped that by just saying "you'll get them" hostilities could be held off while negotiations continued. We didn't really go for it after a year or two.

The really weird thing about the Revolution is why they blamed the King. Parliament was the one issuing the taxes, not George III. The man was mentally ill for most of his reign, he could hardly formulate a complex financial plan for the Empire

EDIT EDIT: Honestly, it's important to remember that the American Revolution was perpetrated and fought by a minority of the population. A very tiny minority. Most American's had no part in the Revolution and were kind of just "we're our own country? Huh. Go figure."

EDIT EDIT EDIT: I'll also suggest your posted article doesn't give WWII Britain enough credit. Manpower wise the contribution meant less, but British ULTRA proved invaluable through out the war as well as MI5 and MI6 which helped keep the Resistance movements in mainland Europe going. The British also cordoned off the Japanese in South East Asia even if the US pulled most of the heavy lifting in the theater. Was Britain vital? Not really, but to suggest that Britain didn't contribute as much as the US and USSR seems a bit of a disservice. Not to mention Britain's strategic location for the launch of Allied bombing.