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So i've gotten really into warhammer 40k lately. been a fantasy player for a while and i'm trying to start a 40k army. Really i'm trying to decide between grey knights, blood angels, and eldar. I generally know the pros and cons of them but I was talking to someone earlier in the week and they were just going on about how grey knights were broken and awful anymore. I forgot at the time to ask them at the time why they thought so, so i'm still not real sure. So really i'm just interested in people's opinions about these armies as i contemplate putting one together, and wondering what's so broken about grey knights when they seem so crazy awesome in the lore.

Two words: Khornate Knights

Belexar wrote:Two words: Khornate Knights

Yawn...that is just such a silly old complaint.

Well, that's really the only reason I dislike them. I don't see them as overpowered and the whole deal with Draigo isn't that nonsense to me since in my canon Malal still exists. Dreadknights to look quite silly to me, though.

They aren't broken, people just whine a lot because they're uninformed. This happens with pretty much every recent army and people go nuts about how they can't deal with X because they're not used to fighting it. Go buy some space knights and paint them up because they look awesome, then kill some bad dudes with them.

If they seem crazy awesome in the lore to you, then I think you should play them.

The fluff is terrible, and the rules aren't as well written as they could be, but they're not horrifically overpowered or underpowered. Compared to the other recent codecies, it's actually not too horribly balanced.

However the codex itself is gak. Don't buy it expecting any good fluff, and don't expect the rules to be well thought out.

The Khornate knights thing...its a bit off what it actually is in the codex. The sisters aren't inviolate as it says at the bottom, they fall to the bloodtide just as the clergy did. The GK don't desecrate the bodies. They spill their blood, that is all, it doesn't mean they carve 'lulz' into the sister's neck stump.

People always say that it shows the Grey Knights being corrupted. It doesn't. It just shows the lengths they go to to defeat daemons. Its the grimdark future. If they joined hands and prayed with the sisters, people would whine just as much, for different reasons.

The fact that some sisters were corrupted on the planet just makes it all less backed up by the whole they needed to do it argument. Let us mercilessly kill these females and smear their blood all over our armor.............To protect our faith. Wait, they're not all pure? Eh, let's do it anyway. Don't mind the fact that we're perfectly perfect and can't ever be corrupted in the first place. I just love killin' me some women.

Belexar wrote:Well, that's really the only reason I dislike them. I don't see them as overpowered and the whole deal with Draigo isn't that nonsense to me since in my canon Malal still exists. Dreadknights to look quite silly to me, though.

Finally someone else!

The 2 main criticisms with 5th ed GK as far as I see is commonly to do with fluff and rules.

In terms of fluff, the current book is very overzealous with the lore in comparison to the previous book. The fluff is quite over the top (even by 40k standards) and is hard to palate by some.

In terms of rules, their basic units and upgrades are a little undercosted (basic GK marine with a force weapon and storm bolter costs 20pts). Army wide str5 force weapons essentially gives monster monster mash armies like Tyranids a hard time. I wouldn’t call GK as a whole game breaking broken but I wouldn’t call them perfectly balanced either.

At the end of the day, you should field an army that you’re happy with. If you’ve read the book and don’t mind the rules or fluff then by all means collect them.

I should point out, generally being Str5 in close combat precludes the use of force weapons. An unusually large number of people seem to believe grey knight melee can be both ID and S5 simultaneously. it takes independent characters to pull that off, of which there are very few cheap options. A lot of people misunderstand some aspect of the rules and cry broken when the percieved issue does not actually exist.

As for cost, the 20 point stormbolter/force sword Grey Knight dies just as easily to a krak missile as a 16 point Tactical. Because you do pay nonoptional points for superior guns, if you're going to be effective, you need to use them. Strike Squads can't hide in a rhino and fire a missile launcher out the top like tacticals, you need to dismount to use those stormbolters and expose yourself to counterfire. The overall cost is less overpowered than at first glance, because either you are demeching yourself to use that firepower, or you aren't using the guns that you paid for. The 205pt Tac squad hiding in a Rhino is equally Scoring as a 240 point Strike Squad in a rhino, and even has a longer reach.

If you like the style, and don't mind playing a midfield shooting army that often fights outside its vehicles, then Grey Knights are for you. You will have a metric ton of 24" Assault guns, and access to Str 6 heavy bolters and Str 8 autocannons. You will have Terminators as troops, vehicles that can shake suppression with ease, and plenty of Force Org shift options. You will have a buffet selection of psychic powers and special abilities, close combat weapons, and grenades for every occasion. You will be able to butcher all kinds of MEQ in melee while being able to put out shot count on the run to kill hordes.

You won't have BS4 melta, plasma, or even missiles on infantry, and if you want them you're taking an Inquisitor to unlock the fragile unit that is your sole source of it. You won't have the points for much more than a small slice of all of the wonderful things, because that extra 30-40 points/unit becomes telling swiftly, and you don't really have any cheap choices. You won't have full use of most of your army if Runes of Warding, Shadows in the Warp, or a psychic hood hits the table. You won't even actually be all that great at fighting daemons, because Eternal Warriors with Invulnerable saves and better weapon skill aren't all that afraid of 1A force weapon wielders, even if they hit 75% of the time instead of 50%.

In terms of fluff, the current book is very overzealous with the lore in comparison to the previous book. The fluff is quite over the top (even by 40k standards) and is hard to palate by some.

Yup. GK taking the field next to daemonhosts? *BLAM*
GK going from NONE PURER to "Hello sister, I am going to use you and your entire convent as armor paint in blood rituals because I am just not faithful enough."? *BLAM*
GK using daemon weapo--*BLAM* *BLAM* *BLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAM* *Click....clatter...SLAP-RACK* *BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM*..........*BLAM*
Draigo the lost primar--I MEAN Grand master cutting up daemon primarchs solo? Well with the power of the emperor, anything is possib...Oh heck with it. *BLAM*

Then you get to the just frankly so over the top its sad bits like the recruitment fluff, the elevation to paladin process fluff, the "SEKRAT BOX THAT COULD TEAR THE IMPERIUM ASUND--*BLAM*

In terms of rules, their basic units and upgrades are a little undercosted (basic GK marine with a force weapon and storm bolter costs 20pts). Army wide str5 force weapons essentially gives monster monster mash armies like Tyranids a hard time. I wouldn’t call GK as a whole game breaking broken but I wouldn’t call them perfectly balanced either.

Not particularly. Assuming relatively equal skill levels, a tyranid player is not something a GK should take lightly. Your 20 point force weapon tactical marine still doesn't do well against a swarm of hormagaunts. You ignored a 6+ save with your one attack. Woopie! And by the time you fill out this squad with a hammer, two psycannons, bump it up to 10 men, psybolts, and a rhino, the tyranid player puts 29 hormagaunts on the board with adrenals and toxin. Or fills out his elite slots with hive guard.

As much as I malign Ward for his atrocious writing, all of his codices have been rather strong, but still balanced. In this regard I have a bone to pick with Kelly a long time before Ward.

BrainDeleted wrote:The fact that some sisters were corrupted on the planet just makes it all less backed up by the whole they needed to do it argument. Let us mercilessly kill these females and smear their blood all over our armor.............To protect our faith. Wait, they're not all pure? Eh, let's do it anyway. Don't mind the fact that we're perfectly perfect and can't ever be corrupted in the first place. I just love killin' me some women.

This is one of the other problems, before this only one sister had ever fallen to chaos and it mostly seemed to make all the others more reluctant to do so. They did it through pure faith alone compared to the GK's faith, fancy armour and their initiation ritual which itself renders them immune to possession for some reason.

Whole Bloodtide complaint centers about mistaken perception what being "uncorruptible" means. Some people think it means that Grey Knights have some sort of "OmniPower(tm)" which makes them immune to anything Chaotic (which would mean they can't be effected by things like Boon of Mutation, which isn't true).

IMO Bloodtide incident is actually one of the better fluff pieces in the book. It sounds exactly what Imperium, particularly Inquisition and particularly Grey Knights, would do. Much of the OTHER fluff, however, is pretty bad (Draigo, entire Titan being hidden by Warp etc).

Rules-wise, most common complaint seems to be that they have some individual items which are extremely powerful for their cost: Fortitude, Psybolts, some Grenades, Warp Quake. It is possible to make very annoying spammy lists out of GK codex.

The "OTT" stuff is simply RT era fluff - yet now people complain.

Draigo - symbolises the whole imperium in one: doomed to lose as his victories are meaningless

Mordrak - awesome bits of fluff.

Psydreads are awesome - if you dont ALSO let GKs take 12pt troops choices with a psyback razorback. You have the perfect antilight vehicle killer, but then let them take a load of light vehicles....

If you build an ACTUAL GK list, with GKTs, etc in it (mine has no vehicles, and it is NOT driago wing) its a great army to field.

It doesn't mean he's lost if his damage gets repaired. It doesn't change the fact that living in the Warp for an extended period and retaining your physical body should be impossible for everyone, including a Grey Knight.

One of my problems with the codex is that 'psy' seems to have been tacked onto virtually every concievable weapon. The fluff is terrible. And they really shouldn't have been an army to start with.

They aren't all bad. Unless if you like gorillas with giant lascannons.

Fear the mighty Kaldor Draigo, Champion of Malal!

The "OTT" stuff is simply RT era fluff - yet now people complain.

Some of us didn't care much for a lot of the RT era fluff eith--*BLAM*