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I have never playes guard before. I decided to make an army because IG is easy to customize and I would like to convert a whole arny for a change. I realize that this means I will be spending a lot on bits, and because of this I have to have one 2000 pt list and no extra units tp switch out. I simply don't have the cash for unit options.
That being said I decided to make an army that can be used rather effectively at 3 different point levels 1000, 1850, and 2000.
1000:
This list uses dual melta chimeras to flank down one side, a valkyrie to flank down the other, 2 auto cannon chimeras to pop transports for the valkyrie, and a LRBT to kill anything that dismounts from vehicles the meltas kill.
CCS
4x Melta
Chimera

Marbo

PCS
4x Melta
Chimera

PIS
GL
AC
Chimera

PIS
GL
AC
Chimera

Vet Squad
3x plasma
Demolitions

Valkyrie
MRP

LRBT
LC
HKM

1850:
Smae strategy above, but using vandettas to support the Valkyrie and a lot more fire power.

The above +:
PCS
4x Melta
Chimera

PIS
GL
AC
Chimera

PIS
GL
AC
Chimera

Vendetta

Vendetta

LRBT
LC
HKM

2000:
Not a big change here.

The above +:
LRBT
LC
HKM

I have the models already, so change is not an option. Just wanted to know if dakkadakka sees any flaws or weaknesses I will need to be aware of. General props are appritiated too. :-)

Outflanking armies and probably Eldar and Dark Eldar armies loaded with lances will cause some pain for you. And the new Necron Codex might also give you a terrific fit with Scarabs.

It largely depends on what your reaction is to your enemy for everything else; plenty of melta's and a anti-Heavy infantry vet squad.

Are the AutoCannons staying stationary in the Chimeras or are they going to be moving about? I ask because they can't shoot if the vehicle moves that turn, so fielding an AC squad in a Chimera is usually best for securing objectives outside of your deployment zone.

Other than that it looks pretty decent, though you could probably skate by and drop Marbo for something else or upgrades for your vehicles.

Yea, I do plan on using the PIS to hold objectives. The AC is for the first turn and then the fourth on. I plan on using turn 2 &3 to get them into position.

My game store looks like this:
3x Drop Pod SW
2x Mech BA
2x GK
2x Orcs 1 Nob biker army, 1 Mech army
2x Hive guard heavy Nids
2x Imperial Guard
2x Tau 1 mech, 1 Kroot spam
2x CSM Word Bearers & World Eaters
2x Chaos Demons
1x Eldar
1x Dark Eldar
1x Necron

I have to face 3 randomly in any given tournament... I hope I do well.

OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:I have never playes guard before. I decided to make an army because IG is easy to customize and I would like to convert a whole arny for a change. I realize that this means I will be spending a lot on bits, and because of this I have to have one 2000 pt list and no extra units tp switch out. I simply don't have the cash for unit options.
That being said I decided to make an army that can be used rather effectively at 3 different point levels 1000, 1850, and 2000.
1000:
This list uses dual melta chimeras to flank down one side, a valkyrie to flank down the other, 2 auto cannon chimeras to pop transports for the valkyrie, and a LRBT to kill anything that dismounts from vehicles the meltas kill.
CCS
4x Melta
Chimera

Marbo

PCS
4x MeltaMake these Flammers, BS3 and MG don't mix
Chimera

PIS
GL
AC
Chimera

PIS
GL
AC
Chimera

Vet Squad
3x plasma
DemolitionsRun Demo w/ 3 x MG vets. Add LC and Chimera for Plasma vets

ValkyrieMake this a Vendetta.....
MRP

LRBT
LC
HKM BS3 krak missle = no thanks, get rid of it

1850:
Smae strategy above, but using vandettas to support the Valkyrie and a lot more fire power.

The above +:
PCS
4x MeltaMake these Flammers, BS3 and MG don't mix

Chimera

PIS
GL
AC
Chimera

PIS
GL
AC
Chimera

Vendetta

Vendetta

LRBT
LC
HKMdump

2000:
Not a big change here.

The above +:
LRBT
LC
HKMdump

I have the models already, so change is not an option. Just wanted to know if dakkadakka sees any flaws or weaknesses I will need to be aware of. General props are appritiated too. :-)

Several points in my list I would like to defend.
First the Vakyrie.
I see a lot of people say the Valkyrie is worthless, but it is better in a lot of situations.
If a Vendetta moves it can fire one, and only one TL LC. That has 75% chance to hit and a 63.5% chance to kill one and only one infantry model.
A Valkyrie with MRP can fire all its weapons after moving 12". that means it will land 2 S6 and 6 S4 hits a turn. This translates to 4.33 wounds and 1.44 kills.
And that math is based on power armor. Against any mob list the Valkyrie is always preferable.
The next reason the Valkyrie is better in my context is that it is ment to carry a squad. Target priority goes to the thing with 3 LC over a target with a ML and MRP, meaning the Valkyrie will be less likely to be targeted prior to delivering its cargo.
Secondly lets discuss the Melta PCS.
BS3 might seem low to some people, but how much worse is it. BS4 means 2.66 melta hits, BS3 means 2, that's only a .66 hit difference and for 20 points less.
Besides What vehicle requires you to hit it with more then 2 melta hits in a turn to down it.
Third plasma on the Vets.
The Vets are intended to DS from the Valkyrie onto an enemy death star. I already have plenty melta and S7/S9 shots I don't need them to pop vehicles. Besides if they have melta why give them a demo charge?
Demo charges are preferable against heavy infantry or mobs over vehicles. A melta more reliably kills a vehicle, and with BS4 they would land two hits. So if they were set up like you suggest, why bother waisting 30 points to give them overkill?
Plasma will always land more wounds on any infantry unit in the game short of a wraith lord. Plasma lands 4 hits to melta's 2 and that's just simple math.
The last reason I prefer plasma is it allows me to use the unit as a scoring unit after the demo charge is thrown and their job is done. The 24" range makes them still somewhat effective at medium range, allowing them to both camp an objective and provide support.
Forth and finally HKM on LRBT.
These are here for two reasons, first I think they look cool, and second when you fire a BC, LC, and HKM from one vehicle all at once, the enemy is inately more likely to fire on that target. And I want my AV 14 to absorb as much enemy anti tank as possible. Every shot on a LRBT is one less shot at me Chimeras.

All and all I appritiate your thoughts, but this is what I was thinking.

First the Vakyrie.
I see a lot of people say the Valkyrie is worthless, but it is better in a lot of situations.
If a Vendetta moves it can fire one, and only one TL LC. That has 75% chance to hit and a 63.5% chance to kill one and only one infantry model.
A Valkyrie with MRP can fire all its weapons after moving 12". that means it will land 2 S6 and 6 S4 hits a turn. This translates to 4.33 wounds and 1.44 kills.
And that math is based on power armor. Against any mob list the Valkyrie is always preferable.
The next reason the Valkyrie is better in my context is that it is ment to carry a squad. Target priority goes to the thing with 3 LC over a target with a ML and MRP, meaning the Valkyrie will be less likely to be targeted prior to delivering its cargo.

Target priority varies upon the army and player your playing against. Imo, anything skimmer that can move flat out and out flank is priority one in my book. So its a rather moot point to try to defend your argument based on your opponents opinions.

1.44 Kills? That doesn't sound cost efficient and I'm guessing your math is also dependent on getting direct hits on your scatter. I'm not saying it justifies dropping the Valkyrie, but that was a very bad example.

And Vendettas can fire all their weapons if they move 6" and their more efficient hunting tanks and monstrous creatures. Its also 30 Points cheaper with your current Valkyrie setup. Yes it doesn't kill mobs, but it has a far better shot of killing Land Raiders, Monoliths, and Leman Russ Tanks than BS3 Meltas.

Secondly lets discuss the Melta PCS.
BS3 might seem low to some people, but how much worse is it. BS4 means 2.66 melta hits, BS3 means 2, that's only a .66 hit difference and for 20 points less.
Besides What vehicle requires you to hit it with more then 2 melta hits in a turn to down it.

As an avid Tau and Guard Player, BS3 is not good. While in theory it doesn't seem that bad, but math and luck don't mix.

The Vets are intended to DS from the Valkyrie onto an enemy death star. I already have plenty melta and S7/S9 shots I don't need them to pop vehicles.

Grav Chute Insertion? With Plasma Guns? Are you trying to kill them on purpose? Not only do plasma guns overheating is a really bad thing for +5 Guardsmen, the dangerous terrain check for Grav Chute insertion would kill 2 or 3, coupled with overheat ones your 'anti-death star' unit is taking a Leadership Check. I strongly recommend against doing that.

And once again, math and luck do not mix.

Melta's are stupid on a Demolition Vet Squad. They come with Metla Bombs and a Demo Charge. However, fielding them plasma guns is also silly because your not using them for what their intended for, Killing Vehicles. You'd save alot more points just buying a standard Vet squad and giving them plasma guns.

If you want your Demolition Vets to be cost effective, swap out the Plasma and give them a Heavy Flamer and Two Flamers; they automatically hit and the heavy flamer would net you more wounds than plasma.

And your have 4 Infantry Squads holding objectives, you don't really need anymore. Use the Vets to contest held ones and burn out defenders with your Heavy and regular flamers.

Forth and finally HKM on LRBT.
These are here for two reasons, first I think they look cool, and second when you fire a BC, LC, and HKM from one vehicle all at once, the enemy is inately more likely to fire on that target. And I want my AV 14 to absorb as much enemy anti tank as possible. Every shot on a LRBT is one less shot at me Chimeras.

No. Just no. A One shot BS3 Krak Missile should no way, no how intimidate anyone into firing at the Leman Russ for that reason. They're going to shoot it because its a Leman Russ Tank staring them in the face. Hunter Killer Missiles are point dumps; buy them if you have 10 or 20 points left to spend.

A Hunter Killer Missile Intimidating? That's like--me trying to intimidate people by charging my Tau into close combat.

Quick responce to the above:
Valk kills vs 10 man infantry squad assuming only one templat hits and get 6 wounds, 1.44 kills after 3+ saves. Vehicle moved 12" remember.

Vendetta kills vs same squad after moving 12" is .63.

when moving 12" the valk is more then 2x as effective.

Valk MRP =130
Vendetta =130

Making the Valk signifigantly better, even against space marines, even assuming half the shots miss.

Again Stormy Im not trying to trick you into anything, only my friends. You are not them. I win my games by abusing them psychologically on the table. I am famous for it, and Im not about to change my tactics when I reguarly take 1st or 2nd in rouge traders against DE, SW, and GK.

even if the 130 point anty heavy infanty died it will kill 5 terminators on adverage before dieing. I say 130 points is worth killing a minimum of 200 points in one turn if I come out ahead.

If a Vendetta moves it can fire one, and only one TL LC.

Er... Vendetta fires all 3 twin linked lascannons when it moves. It is a Fast Skimmer, same as the Valk.

No one should dog the Valk, they just attack two different things. The big difference is they are both BS 3 but the Vendetta is twin linked. That roughly breaks down to a 75% chance for each lascannon to hit, and a /really/ good chance for 2 lascannons to hit out of the 3. You don't use the Vendetta to hunt infantry and you don't use the Valk to hunt tanks... simple as that. If your not shooting the right things, your failing your list with poor tactical choices of targets. People love Vendettas as gunships for long range AT, a role they excell in.

Putting flamers on BS 4 troops is a waste. That is why Feindus is telling you to throw them on your PCS. I will disagree though that melta guns are a waste on BS 3. Melta guns are just soooo dang important in 5th Ed due to mech, power armor, and high Toughness targets. They are also assault. This is why melta gun vets in Chimeras is so dang popular. Thank the Emperor Guard is a versital codex that has more than that and can win.

In IG, I can honestly see /every/ special weapon as either a melta gun or a plasma gun. I would /never/ put plasma on BS 3 troops though, and I do put flamers on PCS all the time. But when you run Chimeras, hull heavy flamers for every attacking Chimera is a must. /That/ is your anti-hoard. You only leave the heavy bolter on rear area objective campers.

HKM... you do understand it is a one shot weapon, correct? BS 3 is a 50-50 chance of hitting, and it really isn't that great. For those points, you can upgrade two dog worthless GLs to melta guns.

As for the mini debate over Demolitions, the demo charge is not taking away a melta shot. It /does/ make more sense on the plasma vets to give them a form of AT, but you can argue the charge gives the melta guys a form of anti-hoard. Demolitions is just good on any load-out, even if the charge is a one shot weapon.

You need to get 30pts and get a Officer of the Fleet on your CCS to screw over those DSing lists.

I would drop the LC on the LRBT. LRBTs are not anti-tank vehicles, they are anti-infantry vehicles. There is only on LRBT variant that is a real 'tank', and that is the Vanq. To bad that it is still BS 3 (they /really/ needed Vet crews for vehicles as an option) and not really good against anything else. Since you failed on your Vendetta rules, you better brush up on your Ordnance vs Armor rules... that is why the LRBT is anti-infantry.

Personally, I do not like 'Suiciding' vets in close with a Valk/Vendetta. You are effectivily throwing away the squad and even your skimmer, as now it is in melta range... and why wouldn't they shoot it? That 50% cover save sure doesn't feel like much then. If you want cheap troops (specially with a platoon), either use a SWS or your PCSs and throw them in the skimmers.

Oh, your first list is 1025pts, not 1000pts. I will point out the toys on your LRBT is an extra 25pts. The base tank is 150pts. That seems to be a trend as every list is off points. Thanks for not listing total points for each unit and making me work at it.

@ BlkTom
Finally a respectful poster with half decent opinions.

And going down the list of responces I now have to give

First Fast vehicles:
May fire all weapons after moving 6" or one weapon amd all defencive weapons after moving 12" So I was right, and you were right, but we were talking about two different scenarios. Sorry for the mix up.

Next Melta:
I agree whole heartedly.

Demolitions:
Yea I know, isn't it awesome?

LRBT:
Do ordinance weapons not get 2D6 armor pen, and count as full S if the center of the template is on the vehicle?

Suiciding Vets:
I will lose 1 maybe 2 from both the DS and the plasma. And I plan on not having an enemy infront of them to retaliate.

Valk DS:
DS from a Valk can occure from any point along the Valk's 24" flat out move. This would put the Valk far out of melta range, hopefully.

HKM:
I'm trying to throw away points here. The game is about fun, so let's use what looks cool even if it isn't optomized. Besides I'm either the best player at my club, or the runner up. There is no point in optomizing.

Advisors:
Have no effect on DP assauly.

My List:
Comes to 1010 actually. I just might drop the HKM.

Thanks for the post man very much appritiated.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the by, I just love typing on my phone...

OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
CCS
4x Melta
Chimera

145pts

OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:Marbo

65pts

OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:PCS
4x Melta
Chimera

125pts

OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:PIS
GL
AC
Chimera

120pts

OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:PIS
GL
AC
Chimera

120pts

OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:Vet Squad
3x plasma
Demolitions

145pts

OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:Valkyrie
MRP

130pts

OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:LRBT
LC
HKM

175pts

1025pts

My math is not off.

Ordnance.
No, you roll 2d6 and you pick the highest dice (each dice has a result, and you pick the highest result) /if/ the center of the marker is on the vehicle, versus the armor facing it would land on. If the center of the marker is not on the vehicle but it is in the blast, you roll a single d6 at half strength. This is also a weapon that you roll for scatter every time with a BS 3 crew. Pg 60, BRB

Suicide Vets.
If you grav chute into terrain, on a enemy unit or any other location where they can't deploy, the entire unit is destroyed. As per the DS rules, so you start with one fig and circle out from there base contact to base contact... so anything within 2"-3" of your start point kills your entire unit, not one or two guys. Re-read Grav Chut insertion.

Advisors and drop pods.
Actually, they do effect drop pods. Half of the drop pods arrive on turn 1, but the rest roll normally. So yeah, if they have 1 drop pod, it is coming in turn 1 no matter what. But anything past 1 is suspect due to Officer of the Fleet. They do get to choose what shows up turn one though.

I am sure phone typing must be enjoyable in a sadistic manner. Just don't do it while your driving.