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Hello all,

I tend to distance myself from marines, Ultrasmurfs or otherwise, for reasons too numerous to list, but I'm really drawn to the idea of building a pre-heresy force. Of the nine legions, two really grab my attention: Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons.

Of the two, I prefer Emporer's children, as they specialise in sonic weapons, which brings me to my questions:

1) Did EC specialise in Sonic Weapons pre-heresy, or is it just a post heresy thing?
2) What Mk armour would both these legions wear?
3) Could someone explain the sorcery situation with the Thousand Sons? I understand post heresy, but how did it work beforehand?
4) Which is the least explored pre-heresy chapter? I'd really like to field something totally different on the table
5) Any other important things, tips, advice etc you could give would be much appreciated

Oh, and I seem to remember a Whats New Today post quite a while back featuring some Emperor's Children, if anyone can link it that'd be awesome!

Thanks, Dakka!

1) Just a post--heresy thing. The novel Fulgrim actually describes the first noise marine being 'created' or whatever you want to call it.

3) Really good question. It depends on how you define sorcery. No kidding. Certain high powered 1k Sons had daemonic familiars, or pets, or whatever the tutelaries did. However there's no clear indication if the tutelaries were associated with the Ruinous Powers, or simply 'natural' warp entities, nor is there much material to determine what the tutelaries did to help out their 1k Son masters. Otherwise pre-heresy you've got the Sons divided into five cults, each with a specialization in the use of psychic powers.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cults_of_the_Thousand_Sons

4) Least explored chapter? Salamanders? Even post-heresy there's bugger all about them. Of the two traitor legions you listed, they each have an entire HH novel dedicated to them, and the novel covers them all the way untill they fall, so that's pretty good coverage in both cases. On the traitor legion side outside the two you mentioned? Death Guard and Night Lords don't have a whole lot of pre-heresy fluff, relatively speaking. Not a whole lot on World Eaters either, but they're a tad more one dimensional to begin with.

It's a shame about 1), I think pre-heresy noise marines would have looked cool :/

And thanks for the info on 3), glad to finally scratch that mental itch

As said above, the "Noise Marines" were made after they allied with Horus.

For more info, look here:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Noise_Marine#.Tqm4zJw7fTQ
And here:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Bequa_Kynska#.Tqm5A5w7fTQ


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The second is really just background on the person who helped cause the creation of Noise Marines.

From what I can gather, Night Lords were used as a Fear tactic (thanks, lexicanum!) pre heresy, and they painted their armour with death imagery...that could be fun

TheFatElf wrote:Hello all,

I tend to distance myself from marines, Ultrasmurfs or otherwise, for reasons too numerous to list, but I'm really drawn to the idea of building a pre-heresy force. Of the nine legions, two really grab my attention: Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons.

Of the two, I prefer Emporer's children, as they specialise in sonic weapons, which brings me to my questions:

1) Did EC specialise in Sonic Weapons pre-heresy, or is it just a post heresy thing?

They were created during the Heresy. They weren't what we know them as now, it was pretty much just some Emperor's Children with some big instruments (Quiet, you at the back).

2) What Mk armour would both these legions wear?

It would be a mix of Mark II, a large portion would be in Mark III, the rest would be in Mark IV, with only some in the Mark V. Obviously, there probably a bit of mix and match as some pieces of gear are replaced due to damage. Each Legion would likely make their own modifications, like how the Emperor's Children were the only ones allowed to wear the Aquila (double headed eagle) on their chest, and the Thousand Sons would likely have a lot of scarabs, gems, cult symbols etc.

3) Could someone explain the sorcery situation with the Thousand Sons? I understand post heresy, but how did it work beforehand?

I think most Thousand Sons were pyskers of some sort, the majority were latent, their powers didn't manifest in a form they could control. Most high ranking Sons were powerful psykers, the highest ranking of theses were bound to a familiar, a small Daemon, that allowed them to draw power from the Warp and control it. Within the Legion there were cults dedicated to a specific psyker power, each being lead by of the Captains. For example, Ahriman was the Captain of the First Fellowship (A company in the other Legions), but was also the head of the Corvidae cult, one dedicated to precognition, whereas Phosis T'kar was Captain of the 2nd Fellowship and head of the Raptora Cult, one specialized on using kinetic barriers to attack and defend with. All the psykers within the Legion were strict adherents to what was called, Enumerations. There were different levels, each one would allow the Sons to access more power and ability with each rising rank whilst remaining in control. So the first level would perhaps allow the ability to lift an apple with your mind, whilst the eighth Enumeration would allow your spirit to exist the mortal plain and fly through the Warp. It was also a way to measure the power level of psyker. Again, Ahriman was an Adept Exemptus, he had mastered his field of precognition and was able to rise higher in the Enumeration levels than those of lower rank.

4) Which is the least explored pre-heresy chapter? I'd really like to field something totally different on the table

Probably the White Scars. I doubt they operated any different to the present, lots of fast-moving armour and bikes.

5) Any other important things, tips, advice etc you could give would be much appreciated

I would go the Thousand Sons. The Grey Knights codex would allow you to field an effective counts-as army, both pre-heresy and post heresy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheFatElf wrote:From what I can gather, Night Lords were used as a Fear tactic (thanks, lexicanum!) pre heresy, and they painted their armour with death imagery...that could be fun

Indeed. They used as the fear weapon of the Legions. Even the sight of a regular Astartes dropping from orbit and charging with CC weapons is intimidating enough, but the Night Lords used fear as a deliberate weapon in order to break their opponent. Stuff like dropping into the ruling leader's home, killing his entire family and leaving their skinless corpses hanging from chains somewhere very visible whilst leaving the leader alive would be something they Night Lords would do. They were ruthless and debased even before the Heresy, as the majority were murderers and criminals before they were taken. Torturing for information was a common theme. Their armour was Midnight blue, and they often painted streaks of lightening down their legs and arms, and over their pauldrons, whilst painting the faces of the helms with a skull. It's not regimental, just something that caught on. Uzas for example, painted the shape of a human hand on his helm, after a red mark was left by a woman he strangled. They had ceremonial helmets with large bat-wings on the sides, and adorned themselves with chains and other trophies, whilst keeping the traditions of oath swearing and attaching it to their armour in a clearly visible place. Raptors were obviously quite prominent too.
Take a look at the books Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver for more, it gives a pretty good picture of what the Night Lords are like once let off the chain.

Thanks for the info everyone! Especially Improxtaco, very informative post

I'm liking the Night Lords a lot, though I think I'd do them pre-heresy due to the fact that I don't like the wings on the chaos version helmets

True, the look pretty stupid, but they were only ceremonial so weren't worn outside of special occasions.

iproxtaco wrote:

TheFatElf wrote:

2) What Mk armour would both these legions wear?

It would be a mix of Mark II, a large portion would be in Mark III, the rest would be in Mark IV, with only some in the Mark V. Obviously, there probably a bit of mix and match as some pieces of gear are replaced due to damage. Each Legion would likely make their own modifications, like how the Emperor's Children were the only ones allowed to wear the Aquila (double headed eagle) on their chest, and the Thousand Sons would likely have a lot of scarabs, gems, cult symbols etc.

Actually, I'm going to have to disagree. I think Mk III would be in the minority since it was a specialized suit of armor for boarding actions, tunnel fighting, urban combat, and other close range affairs.

Mostly, I think the most common armor would be Mk II and Mk IV with a healthy dose of Mk V depending on how far into the heresy we're talking. I think Mk V may have been mostly loyalist equipment though.

Ok then. Nice to see you pretty much agree with me then. I said a 'good portion' not that it would be in the majority.

iproxtaco wrote:a large portion

A large portion. Portion. That is large. Here's a cake. A third of the cake is a large portion of the cake, but it is not the majority of this cake. You get me?

It's not a personal affront. I'm just saying that Mk III would probably be in the vast minority (Especially in the case of the Children) except when we're discussing Legions like the Iron Warriors or the Imperial Fists.

Minority, yes. Vast minority? Not sure. They'd be fairly common in my opinion, but not the most used Mark of armour.

2) What Mk armour would both these legions wear?

I'm not sure of the Mark but the Emperor's Children were supposedly the only Legion allowed to bear the double headed eagle on their chest plates.
I always thought that it'd be cool to gather enogh chests to make a squad. It realy pays off to have a strict uniformality to marine models.
My friend has a beautiful Imperial Fists army where every Veteran is made from the same collection of bits. It looks fantastic.

Pre-heresy the Emperor's Children were outfitted with mark IV Maximus armor.

DeffDred wrote:

2) What Mk armour would both these legions wear?

I'm not sure of the Mark but the Emperor's Children were supposedly the only Legion allowed to bear the double headed eagle on their chest plates.
I always thought that it'd be cool to gather enogh chests to make a squad. It realy pays off to have a strict uniformality to marine models.
My friend has a beautiful Imperial Fists army where every Veteran is made from the same collection of bits. It looks fantastic.

As far as I understood it, they were the only Legion who were all allowed to wear the Aquila (which was an honour badge). I see no reason why individual warriors or squads from other Legions (or non-Astartes) could not have also been given this honour; the Emperor's Children were just special in that they all could.