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Very simple question: my most recent list has 3 units of fire dragons. Each is transported in a wave serpent, which currently have scatter lasers and no other upgrades (115 pts). For the same cost I can get the slightly worse shuriken cannons and the star engines upgrade. Is this a good idea? Against many opponents (ie those with heavy vehicles) I want to move my fire dragons flat out at the beginning of the game to get into position, also they are the first priority target for the enemy. So in some cases I'd say having a better position and being able to reach out to vehicles right at the opposite board edge is better than a marginally better gun. Flip side is if I don't want to rush in immediately, the shuriken cannons' range of 24" makes it hard to shoot without getting into range of infantry special weapons or of fleet assaults.

Please give your opinions! Anything else that occurs to you on this subject is very welcome, but I'm not taking spirit stones.

... honestly? Spirt stones is the only upgrade worth taking as it keeps the serpent moving for as long as it can.

Star engines? Only games with Dawn of war will this be forth while. Otherwise you can just start up close enough and move flat out and then next turn another 14" (flip the serpent 180' and deploy 2") ... roughly 36" threat range from a start point.

If you want a more shooty roll then you could fit it with S.Cannon and Scatter Lasers. Drops of the dragons and then drops back 6" every turn firing everything.

Star engines are useful not only for getting the serpents across the table quickly, they also allow you to do things like interdict enemy charges by blocking access to your guys *after* they shoot (although not in the turn when they disembark) and using your wave serpents as rammers in the shooting phase (though not with guys embarked in case you immobilize).

I always take a couple of grav tanks with star engines just for this purpose. But I usually put the star engines on my DA serpents or on falcons (falcons are better at ramming because of the holofield).

Flavius Infernus wrote:Star engines are useful not only for getting the serpents across the table quickly, they also allow you to do things like interdict enemy charges by blocking access to your guys *after* they shoot (although not in the turn when they disembark) and using your wave serpents as rammers in the shooting phase (though not with guys embarked in case you immobilize).

... Ramming/Tank-shocking via star engines is another mess that's never been answered. Tank-charging is done instead of moving normally are we moving normally?

It probably belongs in YMDC, but my understanding is that you have permission to ram in the movement phase and nowhere else, so Star Engines can't be used to ram/tank shock since they are used in the shooting phases.

Anyway I think Tri covered this pretty well. Spirit Stones are by far the most valuable vehicle upgrade for Eldar (aside from Holos on Falcons) because a Mechdar army which isn't mobile is a dead army. They are particularly valuable for Serpents carrying Dragons and other Serpents which are going to get up close, where being stunned for a turn will almost certainly get you killed. Eldar aren't really an army which wants to get up close asap, they want to standoff as long as they can and crush isolated/weakened units. I can't actually remember the last time I moved my Fire Dragons flat out turn 1, I think I did it once in all my tournament games this year (against a 4 Land Raider list).

Star Engines on the other hand are a pretty meh upgrade. 24" is already heaps for normal purposes, unless you are coming from reserves/the board edge 36" is actually way too far since its going to put you close enough to get assaulted and shot by heaps of meltaguns etc. From a normal deployment 12" + 24" move + 12" move + 3" disembark + 6" melta is 57", well past their board edge, even without the 12" deployment you are pretty much touching their board edge (you can get another 2" or so from the rotate trick, and no vehicle is 1" wide). The blocking trick Flavius mentioned can already be achieved with the V trick with 2 Serpents, which also doesn't stop your Serpents shooting.

As far as weapons go the Scatter Laser is much much better than the Shuriken Cannon, the extra shot and most importantly the extra range mean that you should really only be taking Shuriken Cannons if you desperately need to save some points or as underslung versions to boost your firepower.

I didn't intend for this to become the subject, but I just don't get the approval for spirit stones. Yes, it is imperative to be shaken rather than stunned. But your chance of being stunned is never more than 1/6 on a roll of the damage table. Whereas on a penetrating hit you are looking at a 3/6 chance to be wrecked or immobilised straight off, rendering the upgrade a waste. If you see what I mean, actually being stunned is so relatively rare that its not worth protecting yourself against by paying a tax on all your vehicles. In my list I do have it on the one falcon, since the point of a scoring holofields tank is to stay alive whenever possible.

Anyway I see Powerguy and Tri's points about not usually needing more than 24" movement, and often not facing such heavy armour that you need to zoom forward. I do commonly go into full reserves though, especially if I am going second. When DoW games are factored in that will be a very common situation where 36" becomes a lot more useful.

Just to make this 100% clear wave serpents don't need upgrades. Its your call on star engines but if you're taking upgrade spiritstones are more useful.

Powerguy wrote:
The blocking trick Flavius mentioned can already be achieved with the V trick with 2 Serpents, which also doesn't stop your Serpents shooting.

Sometimes it's tough--especially with smaller vehicles, to avoid giving the target a saving throw when shooting through your gaps in a V formation. Being able to leave the shot wide open, then moving after the shot, leaves no possibility for either the possible cover save, or for a gap that's just a little too wide to prevent countercharge.

I haven't used spirit stones since the start of 5th edition, and can count on one hand the number of times in the last few years that they would have helped me at all. I have used star engines frequently to grab last minute objectives, though.

Fritz used to have some videos on the uses of star engines on his Way of Saim Hainn site that are worth checking out.

I like spending the bare minimum number of points on my Fire Dragon squads. 5 Dragons, Wave Serpent with Shuriken Cannon.

Gives a very dangerous unit, and keeps the point cost down to 180 points. I don't think I've ever found myself wishing I had Star Engines, as 24 inch turbo boost is often enough, and I don't want to put expensive Scatter Lasers on suicidal Wave Serpents.

Flavius Infernus wrote:I haven't used spirit stones since the start of 5th edition, and can count on one hand the number of times in the last few years that they would have helped me at all. I have used star engines frequently to grab last minute objectives, though.

I have the opposite experience. Against mobile CC armies like Orks, Blood Angels, DE Wych cult etc, spirit stones saved my vehicles too many times than I can count, because the amount of glancing hits these armies can put out can be staggering(80 attacks from a Boyz mob Waaagh'ing from the Battlewagon, for instance. It doesn't matter that they need two 6's in a row to even glance, with so many attacks, hits WILL happen) and one or two of them will often be Crew - Stunned. You only need 1 of those to royally screw you over. Against mainly shooty armies, I agree, spirit stones are seldom worth it, so it depends on your local meta, as always. In a TAC list, I'd still take them due to proliferation of Orks and Blood Angels in tournaments around here.

I guess if I didn't already take spirit stones, I'd take star engines on some Serpents instead, not for the 36" move but for the mentioned tactical advantage. Then again, I also like to use Vypers for the same job.

The real question is whether either of these are cost-effective upgrades on Fire Dragon serpents...I'm leaning towards not, for both. I do like my scatterlasers, though, so I wouldn't drop those to cannons if I had any points to spare.

40 boys attacks on a flat out serpent will generate one glance. Seriously. You are Eldar, you dictate who charges what.

I take the dragons with tl shuricannon and scatter lasers. Yup. I charge 3 da skimmers forward tank shocking and blocking the opponents parking lot up, and shoot with the dragons until something comes out of the mess I made that needs dead. It works wonderfully.

Stones and star engines are just not cost effective.

40 Shoota Boyz will get 1.66 Glances on the Flatout and 3.33 if it did not move flat out. But on the Orks next turn that turns into 20 Glances, not to mentioning the Nob Getting free Power Claw hits on the Eldars turn.

Jbunny, your math implies you are taking cover saves against those attacks, cover saves from moving flat out are only taken against shooting (IIRC).

I can see that spirit stones are still a bone of contention! The general consensus seems to be that star engines are often not needed. That makes sense to me, I will run without them for now and try to keep a record of games where they really would have been useful (as was mentioned, it makes a big difference when reserves/DoW are in play).

On the scatter lasers/shuriken cannon front: I really think you're paying for the extra range. Lots of armies (especially those with lots of rhinos/razorbacks rather than heavy tanks, or infantry assault armies) you want to hang back for a while, and 24" range guns mean the front of your tank is not more than 20" from the target, although you can increase this by turning sideways in some situations. That makes it a pretty nice matter of judgement to avoid assault from some unit types.

I think Spirit Stones are wonderful, and generally I have them on all my tanks at 1500pts and up. Below that I need to scrimp on points.

I don't know about most of the people here, but my tanks get shaken all the time. An Eldar Tank that's not moving is a dead Eldar tank. Yes, penetrating hits kill us far more, but honestly I treat 'stunned' without Spirit Stones as a delayed 'Wrecked' result, thanks to no cover save, and being auto-hit in melee by the power fists that see a stranded tank on the next enemy turn.

I know that when I am shooting into a wall of Mech, I love it when the tanks don't have extra armor, as it means that if I stun something instead of shake it, I can move on to other things with the rest of my firepower, as I know that without extra armor I can come back around to that tank next turn for a do-over, as it won't be moving or shooting me at all.

As for Star Engines? I wouldn't bother on suicide tanks. I stick them on all my Falcons and Serpents that I expect to live, but generally not on Dragon Serpents. Their job is to go to the middle of the enemy army, find a tank they don't like, drop, kill it, and then die horribly. If the tanks are still around? Cool, they'll dance around and shoot rear armor with Shuriken Cannons. If not? Oh well, such is their fate. At least they soaked up firepower meant for better tanks on their way down.