Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Okay, looked through the tactics pages with a search and have not found much on Eldar Vypers. I was just curious about peoples opinions of them. I used to avoid them like the plague and thought, no never would I use them. Then I started thinking, hey I could use these guys to help bolster my Guardian Jetbike Squads and make them a great group to take or contest objectives or kill platoons or large boyz mobz. Then over time, I really started to like them. Now I am not saying I field a 3 squads of Vypers in all of my battles, but I would say that I rarely make a 2000pt army without 1 squad.
Why do I like them, you may ask? Well for the reason I listed above, I like to tag these behind a guardian squad. You can move both, put the Vypers in front of the Guardian Jet bike Squad -shoot in the shooting phase, then in the assault phase hop the guardian jet bike squad in front of the Vypers to give them a cover save. This way the enemy does not get the benifit of a cover save when the vypers are shooting, but the vypers get the advantage of cover on the enemies shooting phase. If I want an extra punch in my army, especially when fighting IG and Leman Russes, I will take a squad with Brightlances and Shuriken Cannons undersling. This way I have 3 shots at a Russ and I have 12 shots at a vehicle of armor value 12 or less, pretty nice and I have mobility. Now there are many of you that will say take war walkers they are cheaper, not open topped and can scout. This is true and I do use them in my army too, but once deployed, they do not move that fast and when outflanking, they are sometimes one hit wonders as they will get one series of shots off, only to be crushed with their AV 10 the next turn. I used to max out my heavy weapons choice with War Walkers, but now since I do not know who I am playing against, I will frequently take Fire Prisms and you really need two to shine with TL ability, this leaves one spot for War Walkers whcih well is okay. But what about instead use up your Heavy Weapons choice and use your Faast attack slots for vypers instead. Look at the Fast Attack stuff - Swooping Hawks in 5th Edition are more to annoy than really do anything. The Shining Spears - well I would like them to be good, but really they kinda suck - arguably the worst aspect and or squad in the Eldar Codex, maybe next to a squad of Vybro Cannons. The Warp Spiders are good if used right, but besides the deep strike can not cruise around the board as fast as a vehicle can and lets face it, in 5th edition Eldars protection is speed and Eldar Farseer tricks. Also, I know brightlances are expensive, but instead of 45 points on most other vehicles or monstrous creatures, they are 30 points instead. If you have a farseer nearby a guided Vyper squad can rock. You can get a squad of 3 vypers with Shuriken Cannons on top and underslung, so 18 shots per turn for fairly cheap, I usually run them naked as Spirit Stones are pretty useless in a squad. If you really want a shooty army for hordes like Orks and Nids, take 3 squads of War Walkers 3 each with ScatterLasers, 3 Vyper Squads with Shuri Cannons - 126 strength 6 shots WOW! A lot of things are going to drop with that.
I will not get into the whole Shuriken Cannon vs Scatter Laser Debate here, it has been discussed in other threads, I will many times take it on Walkers for the Extra Range as they can not move as fast, but for Vypers and Serpents I usually go with the Shuriken Cannons for the cost and the AP5 vs 6 which will instakill most IG and Ork Boyz. The range is not as big of a deal as they are moving fast. I almost always put Shuricannons underslung to give the Wave Serpents even more punch in each turn.
So I am interested in everyones opinions on the Vypers, please vote and post away.... Cheers


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I see the poll has 3 votes, please someone post on here to discuss their thoughts on the vypers. I would like to hear why they chose what they chose. Thanks for looking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I see 3 have voted. Please post your thoughts and reason, would like to know everyones thoughts

I run them in a 2500pt list. I run 2 x 3 vypers 1 squad with eml shuricannons and the other with scatlasers and shuricannons followed by a jetseer with guide, doom, and eldrich storm. Its a really nasty combo and I have tore up some battle wagons with it.

I only ever move 12" to get away from some nasty stuff trying to get to them, and even if you do move them 12" they can still fire. I like them much better than war walkers because they don't take up heavy slots. It lets you make a much more mobile shooting army which the eldar are already best at.

I agree with what you say, I like that they do not take a heavy weapons slot.
One question, why take a scatter laser over shuriken cannon? know it has 4 shots vs 3, but at ap 6 vs 5, range 36" vs 24", but on a skimmer you are usually closing on your targets so range usually not as much of an issue. I am just curious of your choice. As for EMLs I like them a lot too and they are cheaper than Brightlances, but for AV 14 tanks, they just don't cut it. But I gues that is what your fire prisms are for right... Thanks for posting. Cheers.

Scatter Lasers are much better than Shuriken Cannons in almost every way. Because cover is so common and most things have better than a 5+ save anyway the extra AP makes no difference. The extra shot produces more damage, importantly it makes you much better against light vehicles and MCs, which don't care about your AP. Against MEQ (probably the most common infantry you will be shooting at) the Scatter Laser is better as well. 36" range is a massive advantage over 24" range, sure you have the mobility to make it work if you want to but the issue is that the number of things which can hurt you jump up significantly at that range bracket. Fast assault units (Beasts, Jump Packs with Fleet or units from a fast assault transport) get into assault range, Multi Meltas, Psycannons and other 24" range weapons can hurt you and anything in a vehicle can now easily hit you with a move + disembark. For Vypers it also puts you into range of basic stuff like Boltguns, which can still bring you down. Tbh Eldar don't want to close to their targets any more than they have to, they work best keeping their distance before crushing weakened units late. That said it does depend on how you plan to use them. If you are using the underslung Cannon then you presumably don't mind the loss of mobility and need to get into 24" range anyway, which makes it a decent S6 platform for 60pts. On Serpents or Falcons though I would always go for Scatters or EML.

EML are solid as well, but not something I would really put on a Vyper. EML work best on Serpents and Falcons, where they last longer, and on War Walkers, who are much better at hiding near the back table edge. Vypers tend to be operating in front of the rest of your vehicles, blocking movement and being annoying so Scatters are really the most expensive weapon I would give them. You should be using Fire Dragons to kill AV14 not Prisms, Prisms work ok, but aren't really reliable since its only a single shot.

In general Vypers are a very underrated unit. In a mech list they work better than Walkers simply because they can move at the same speed as the rest of your army. S6 spam is one of the few things Eldar has going for it and when you have already filled you Heavy slots with Falcons or Prisms they are the cheapest way to increase your damage output. Their ability to block movement effectively is also very helpful and something that very people seem to use effectively. Against lists with some Deathstar type unit (often in a Land Raider) you can flat out right next to them, which boxes them in and prevents them moving past to get to the core of your army (hard to ram through a skimmer and infantry can't lock themselves in combat with a vehicle, so are easy targets the following turn). This gives you time to remove his support units first.

I like the EML on one squad for some more low ap templates and for extra light armour killing. I had the extra points so I figured why not.

I guess my reasoning for Shuriken Cannons over Scatter Lasers is the points difference for the cost of 1 extra potential hit.... statistically I do not think it adds up, but I usually use underslung shuri cannons, so I am always trying to get into range to use this, however the extra 12" on the scatterlasers definitely has its advantages, I guess it is a toss up and depends on deployment styles and types. Thanks for the posts, please keep them coming. Thanks and cheers

While they certainly have their limitations with regards to point costs, BS3, and being open-topped, I do like to run them for some additional high speed firepower (and partially because I have a few from when I first started 40k, and they are very nostalgic).

I have one set up as an S6 "gunship" with scatter laser and underslung shuriken cannon, and two more with EML(all built before I began magetizing everything). I don't usually take much else for fast attack, so I assign one to each slot and fly around harassing and performing surgical strikes where possible. They are very fragile though, so not for those inexperienced with skimmer tactics.

If you bring vypers you have an IQ of below 70.

BS3 Open topped armor 10 for the same cost as a war walker squad which has twice the output?

no rofl

Smitty0305 wrote:If you bring vypers you have an IQ of below 70.

BS3 Open topped armor 10 for the same cost as a war walker squad which has twice the output?

no rofl

I could say the same for someone that takes warwalkers ;D

In all honesty though their ONLY saving grace is that they are in the fast attack slot. So if for some reason you still have space and points left over after 2 HQ slots, 3 Elite slots, 6 troop slots, and 3 Heavy slots... then they become useful.

In a high points game you might just have to use the fast attack slot though.

Smitty0305 wrote:If you bring vypers you have an IQ of below 70.

BS3 Open topped armor 10 for the same cost as a war walker squad which has twice the output?

no rofl

I appreciate everyone's input, however let's try to keep it profesional. I happen to have a very high IQ and I field Vypers a lot. It has already been said that War Walkers are not able to keep up with a fast mech army. Plus there are a lot of Heavy Support Choices to choose from. Many times not leaving space for War Walkers, in which case since the Fast Attack slots are relatively weak, I frequently use Vypers. But I understand if people don't like them or don't want to play them, but please try to keep it nice.

There may be a relation in Vyper usage and tourney play. I like the models and have 6 of them, but really only fielded them in Ard Boyz. And this was simply b/c of what Blue Dagger stated: HQ, ELITE, TROOP and HEAVY slots were filled. But, this is a 2500 point army. At 2000 points, I keep trying to field them, but I always end of feeling I'm better off just tweaking some points and fielding another Wave Serpent.

They are very fragile units that eat up too many points. Look at the utility of a Venom for its cost vs a Vyper and it becomes very apparent. Overall, the Eldar codex has this issue compared to 5th edition codexes and most players who want to build competitive Eldar lists and Vypers simply cost too many points for what we really want it to do.

If we get a new codex next year, I'm hoping Vypers become a unit I reach for when army building.

I see all the complaints of how fragile the vypers are and kinda chuckle. It's a cheap (if you run them how they probably should be) unit that is fast, of course its going to be fragile, just like SM land speeders and DE transports. Eldar players are spoiled with their hard to kill shielded/holofielded/spirit stoned hover tanks. The basic cost of a double cannon vyper is quite reasonable, even with the fragility involved with it.

Another thing that comes up is "warwalkers are better at this role" You know what? They might be right in a vacuum. Problem is eldar have competition for slots in HS, with some rather decent units fighting for inclusion (fire prisms, falcons, even wraithlords for the holdout MC list players), and warwalker strategy really needs max models in max squads to pay off. Vypers are fighting for a slot with nothing but crap in it. Also nothing wrong with going with both, and relying on your fire dragons and even storm guardians (yeah I know the storm guardians aren't popular for good reasons, but they do have the required weapons, whereas dire avengers have super bolters and bladestorm... more VoF, something that a WW and vyper list have covered) for anti heavy duty.

So if you need VoF, and decided that warwalkers were less important to you list than taking fire prisms and/or falcon, or decided to go crazy with a wraith list.... Vypers are the best option for cheap massed dakka on a fast platform. If you want even more dakka than just walkers can provid, vypers can supplement that firepower quite nicely. If you like the blocking opportunities that skimmer squadrons provide, vypers are good choices (only choice but whatever).

Thanks for the comments.... I used to run only walkers and never Vypers ... used to think like a lot of people do... But now since my lists are almost always mech (as they almost need to be in 5th edition to be competative), I find myself using fire prisms a lot and thus for the extra pew pew I like a squad of vypers... Also many times in big lists, if I am running a seer coucil I will have the Vypers go with them for added support. I do think they are a very viable option now. Though I love my war walkers, but even if flanking, with the rest of the list mech, they usually get one shot off then get pummeled (if the enemy knows what's good for them. Cheers to all and thanks a million for the comments, keep 'em commin'.