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Made in it
Bounding Assault Marine





Italy, Cremona

Sorry if it's the wrong section but I've made a quick search and I could not find nothing about this.

Are Black Library books and novels considered canon or just suggestions ?

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olympia wrote:
All so-called Finecast miniatures come with the Gets Hot! rule. Roll a "1" and your mini melts!

I've bought my last models from GW on October 10th, 2011. Since then I've bought none, I am against their price policy. Screw them.
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Lincolnshire, UK

Yes.

They're a company owned by GW that produces a huge amount of GW-dedicated background often linked in GW products. It's kind of like saying the IA books aren't canon IMHO.
The BL authors also state it as canon too.

However, canon/lore/fluff and the interpretation and legality of it varies widely from person to person, so you inevitably will get people disagreeing with them being canon (whilst the vast majority agree they are).

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Made in gb
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Dumbarton, Scotland

Basically, GW have always advocated personal canon. Either you can take every single word as absolute canon, or you can pick and choose.

(This is what stopped my brain shutting down after Draigo.)

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Sicarus

Canon, ha, GW laughs at such a term. Canon, contrary to popular belief, does not exist in 40k. It's up to each person to decide what they want as part of their perception of the fluff. It's a better system for discussion of the background than having a canon rating.

Void_Dragon wrote:This thread has taken a turn for the delicious
 
   
Made in nl
Decrepit Dakkanaut






IMO the whole canon thing is dumb.

If you like it, it's good. done.
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine





Sitting in yo' bath tub, poopin out shoggoths

Wow.... 4 posts in a row all agreeing with each other...

The internet is a crazy place indeed

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Made in gb
Fully-charged Electropriest





Canon is for Trekkies, it's totally irrelevant to 40k.



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Made in ie
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine





If you like the stuff, it's your canon. If not, it isn't. Simple as.

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Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut







1.) Official statement is that BL is canon in the sense that someone in the 40k universe thinks it is true. Doesn't say it is really true though.
2.) Some BL authors (esp. CS Goto) went too far and wrote stuff hitting official fluff straight in the face without caring. Since then, BL editors seem to have a look that at least a minimum of consistency is guaranteed.
3.) With Mat Ward, even some fluff in Codices is barely constistent with the rest of the fluff (Chaos Grey Knights) or simply ridiculous (Draigo), so some people decided to even ignore some Codex fluff.

That said, fluff in the main rulebook seems best controlled, followed by Codices and other official rulebooks like Apocalypse and Imperial Armour. Consistency is less guaranteed in BL, 40k RPG and PC games (the latter often having multiple timelines). Be aware that fundamental changes in background happen (e.g. necron and Dark Eldar Codex, or everything before 2nd edition).

So basically you can't force anyone to accept everything, but rulebooks and Codices are the most trusted source for information.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/02 18:14:33


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Made in us
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot






From what I remember of the "official" GW response it was something like
These books (referring here to codices and BL books) are written from the perspective of a person or group and can be influenced by that person or group


Basically: "That's how I remember it happening and I wrote it down"

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Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




If you like it, it's cannon.
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Peoria IL

It really seems like nothing is sacred (which I like). Every story is a legend or a myth that is open to interpretation and every codex is propaganda.

Take what you like, do what you will.

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Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

There is no canon, there is only Zuul.

Basically, GW has no set-in-stone canon for their universe. You're free to use whatever sources you like, interpret codices, novels, short-stories and random internet postings however you like and add, take away, or modify the universe as it suits your tastes. You'll probably get into heated internet nerd-rage wars, but neither side of such battles is right, neither side is wrong, as both sides have the same claim to canonicity as the other.

Obviously, there are a few "basics" to the setting. The Imperium vs everyone else vs everyone else. The God-Emperor being a thing. The Heresy happening. The grimdark. Chaos being bad for one's health, probably. The Inquisition being scary.

Other than that? Go with it.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




BL in fact seems to be anti-canon (when you contrast it with other universes like Star Wars or Trek). They laugh at your ideas of "absolute truth" and "canon authority." If I wasn't cynical I'd think they'd planned it that way even.

The closest you get to "canon" I suspect is "the more often something is repeated, the more true it probably is."
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

The only real consenses on if BL is cannon or not is that its "Loosely Cannon"

The books should be viewed as detailing real events, but through the viewpoint of the main characters as if they were remembering the events as they happened a long time ago. The Events may be distorted by time, memory, exageration, omission, propoganda and must be treated as such. Explicit contradictions should be viewed as the byproduct of confusion and/or one or both parties being wrong to some degree.

General descriptions of how things work/appear should be taken as correct except in the event of contradiction in which case the more "situationally detailed and experienced view" should be viewed as the proper one.

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Made in us
Fighter Pilot






it is canon, but at the same time it isn't. It was mentioned somewhere that everything published could be taken as a "folk" tale. so yes it is canon, but doesn't mean it is true

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Made in us
Tzeentch Doomlord Pilot




Noctis Labyrinthus

GW probably doesn't really care.

There's absolutely no consensus on canon regarding GW, other than having to follow some obvious constants (Like the God Emperor and Chaos, etc.).

If you believe Aaron Dembski-Bowden, the setting works under "loose", or as someone said earlier, "personal" canon.
   
Made in us
Imperial Admiral




Void__Dragon wrote:GW probably doesn't really care.

There's absolutely no consensus on canon regarding GW, other than having to follow some obvious constants (Like the God Emperor and Chaos, etc.).

If you believe Aaron Dembski-Bowden, the setting works under "loose", or as someone said earlier, "personal" canon.


Gav Thorpe - current BL author and former GW studio designer - has said the same.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Sicarus

The word canon does not apply. GW does not use a canon rating, the Black Library books cannot be non-canon because that implies there are certain things that are. There is no such thing as canon within 40k, the studio stuff may be more consistent in the opinions of some, but they aren't official and the don\t override other sources as a result.

Either everything is canon, or nothing is canon.

Void_Dragon wrote:This thread has taken a turn for the delicious
 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

To my knowledge, it is not canon (in a George-Lucas-style-vetting-of-canon-sense).

I vaguely remember an interview with Dan Abnett, where he described some quite vicious debates between "BL" and "GW" (as in the table-top game guys) about how much coherence was necessary between BL-books and game-supplements/game-fluff. It ended with the point that (at least from Dan Abnett's view), what works in a story or novel doesn't necessarly work in the game (or its supplments, like Codex-fluff) and vice versa. So they settled on giving BL authors "creative licence" to approach their own "interpretation" of the 40K universe.

I'll see if I can dig-up the interview somewhere. Though obviously Dan Abnett's personal opinion on the matter might not reflect the "offical stance".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/03 13:01:51


   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

There's a clear structure to it all, but the details are fluid (sometimes too fluid).

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Chicago

BL books, codex fluff, rulebook fluff, etc is all open to interpretation. Basically, it's all in-universe propaganda put out by shadow organizations whom people fear to disagree with. Half of it is exaggeration, and half of it is completely fabricated.

The only "canon" I see in 40k is the actual miniatures and game mechanics.

(Yes, this means I believe a Space Marine is about the same height as an average human, and getting shot with a boltgun is completely harmless 1/3 of the time.)

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Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

Grakmar wrote:
(Yes, this means I believe a Space Marine is about the same height as an average human, and getting shot with a boltgun is completely harmless 1/3 of the time.)


It also means that a sprinting Space Marine moves at about 1/3rd of the speed of a supersonic jet at full speed. A charging Ravenguard Assault Marine at 2/3 of that speed and potentially outruns the maximum distance of the Imperium's most advanced combat rifle in the time it takes one of his fellow Marines to fire but a single shot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/03 14:59:25


   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Chicago

Zweischneid wrote:
Grakmar wrote:
(Yes, this means I believe a Space Marine is about the same height as an average human, and getting shot with a boltgun is completely harmless 1/3 of the time.)


It also means that a sprinting Space Marine moves at about 1/3rd of the speed of a supersonic jet at full speed. A charging Ravenguard Assault Marine at 2/3 of that speed and potentially outruns the maximum distance of the Imperium's most advanced combat rifle in the time it takes one of his fellow Marines to fire but a single shot.

Correct. Which means that the "Jets" in 40k are really slow. Like, Wright Brothers slow. And, weapons in 40k are incredibly short ranged.

Technology in 40k is really, really bad.

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What do Humans know of our pain? We have sung songs of lament since before your ancestors crawled on their bellies from the sea.

Join the fight against the zombie horde! 
   
Made in it
Bounding Assault Marine





Italy, Cremona

so basically,

some of the absurd things I am reading on the Horus Heresy books are considered true stories. I am shocked.

Really.

I have an open mind regarding many things, but some of these are too much. I understand that Marines and the 40k background is not so close as the miniature table top makes us belive, but sometime the writers gets carried too much.

I'm thinking that the Background of the '90s is really (REALLY) much better. At least I didn't had to think of the Primarchs as a bunch of imbeciles.

Thanks for the answers, they were interesting! I just hope that it won't degenerate.

P.s. = the problem regarding fluff and background (in my personal opinion) is only related to Space Marines, for Imperial Guards and normal people seems to work quite fine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/03 16:12:02


Crimson Fists - 15.000 points Salamanders - under construction Imperial Fists - pondering, damn yellow
27th Virginian IG - 4.000 points
olympia wrote:
All so-called Finecast miniatures come with the Gets Hot! rule. Roll a "1" and your mini melts!

I've bought my last models from GW on October 10th, 2011. Since then I've bought none, I am against their price policy. Screw them.
 
   
Made in us
Most Glorious Grey Seer





Everett, WA

Truthfull, there is no "canon" in 40k or Fantasy given how frequently GW retcons their own background material with each new codex/army book/novel that is released.

Reading's for morons who can't understand pictures.

 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

KOS wrote:
I'm thinking that the Background of the '90s is really (REALLY) much better. At least I didn't had to think of the Primarchs as a bunch of imbeciles.


Really?

   
Made in ie
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine





Seaward wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:GW probably doesn't really care.

There's absolutely no consensus on canon regarding GW, other than having to follow some obvious constants (Like the God Emperor and Chaos, etc.).

If you believe Aaron Dembski-Bowden, the setting works under "loose", or as someone said earlier, "personal" canon.


Gav Thorpe - current BL author and former GW studio designer - has said the same.

Yes, but Thorpe is evil and doesn't count.

Arguing with some people is like playing chess with a pigeon. You can play the best chess in the world, but at the end of the day the pigeon will still knock all the pieces off the board and then gak all over it. 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Zweischneid wrote:
KOS wrote:
I'm thinking that the Background of the '90s is really (REALLY) much better. At least I didn't had to think of the Primarchs as a bunch of imbeciles.


Really?


I couldn't get past "skin tight powered armor"

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

A digital hand flamer...

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
 
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