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Hi, first post here, and there's something that's been bothering me.

Now I've read some fluff that mentions the Imperial Navy having a defence force known as Armsmen. I've also read the first Eisenhorn novel, Xenos, which shows us the Navy Security. Now first thing I'd like to know is if these two Naval infantry forces are supposed to be separate or the same entity. All I've read about Armsmen is that they defend from enemy boardings, while Security are said to be elite troops who are capable in both space and on the ground. So it would seem to me like Armsmen refers to lightly-armed red-shirts, while Security are the Navy equivalent of Kasrkin.

However, there's one other thing which I've taken into consideration. When Eisenhorn goes to meet Rorken for the Inquisitorial meeting, it is said that Olm Madorthene greets him with Navy Stormtroopers. Now, perhaps this is just another name for Security, however, since no other detail is given on these 'stormtroopers', is it possible they are an even more elite Naval infantry force? Perhaps Navy Stormtroopers could be the 40k equivalent of US Navy SEALs or something. After all, they're guarding a ship full of prestigious Inquisitors, so perhaps Madorthene got the best men he had to offer to oversee the events.

Can anyone correct me?

Yeah I'm pretty sure it goes like this
Armsmen= Regular guardsmen
Security/Stormtroopers= Karskyn

Kasrkin are Cadian specific stormtroopers...
They are purportedly better than regular stormtroopers.
Stormtroopers themselves aqre fairly badass...

There's no "purportedly" better about it.

In terms of training and discipline for actual warfare, Kasrkin are far far superior to the 'generic' Stormtroopers.

Stormtroopers are trained primarily for the 'lowkey' missions: sabotage, infiltration, etc.
Kasrkin are trained to kick the door open, hold that door open for the following waves and gun down anything that tries to come through that door.

I say purportedly because you were the guy that told me and you kinda have a thing for them... and by thing i mean raging wood.

It's not "purportedly". We got it from "Malleus", "Cadian Blood", and more since.

Well that's that then...

Not sure you can say that "generic" stormtroopers are "low key" operatives, as they're often deployed to spearhead assaults into heavily-fortified positions ahead of the regular IG infantry. Yes, they also perform all sorts of Special Operations missions, as fits their training, but they're more than just spooks.

Psienesis wrote:Not sure you can say that "generic" stormtroopers are "low key" operatives, as they're often deployed to spearhead assaults into heavily-fortified positions ahead of the regular IG infantry. Yes, they also perform all sorts of Special Operations missions, as fits their training, but they're more than just spooks.

You do realize that "spooks" do not equal Special Operations right?

"Spooks" is a term to relate to operators within the intelligence community, which may or may not include Special Operations personnel but generally is a term coined to reference the Central Intelligence Agency's operators in the field doing what can hesitantly be called "the James Bond crap".

Armsen maintain order on ships and dockyards. They're like the Adeptus Arbites of the Imperial Fleet. Naval Security, however, does the heavy lifting and is armed as such; like boarding ships, defensing orbital relays and ships, and Naval interests planet side. They're given everything except armor (Barring Modified Sentinels); from meltas to grenade launchers.

If Naval Storm Troopers were to be placed on the Storm Trooper Hierarchy, I would place them under Kasrkin, and Kasrkin under Inquisitorial Storm Troopers.

Kasrkin are commonly drawn up for Inquisitorial service specifically because they outshine ISTs for operations barring covert operations.

There's a reason that when "Malleus" introduced the Kasrkin concept, GW was keen to bring them into the fold via the 13th Black Crusade book.

"Spooks" is a term to relate to operators within the intelligence community, which may or may not include Special Operations personnel but generally is a term coined to reference the Central Intelligence Agency's operators in the field doing what can hesitantly be called "the James Bond crap".

Sorta. In referencing the CIA guys doing "that James Bond crap", the term has become somewhat archaic. Possibly because a lot of that James Bond crap is done by Soggies now or something. I dunno, I knew a lot of guys in 1st SFG, but the first rule is never ask what they do or where they go to do it, but they were often referred to as "Spooks" by other personnel.

This may just be an evolution of the term.

I think it's just a misutilization of the term, to be frank.

The CIA does have a paramilitary branch which do perform quite a bit of the "James Bond crap" but really are more of the Jason Bourne school I'd say.

Kanluwen wrote:There's no "purportedly" better about it.

In terms of training and discipline for actual warfare, Kasrkin are far far superior to the 'generic' Stormtroopers.

Stormtroopers are trained primarily for the 'lowkey' missions: sabotage, infiltration, etc.
Kasrkin are trained to kick the door open, hold that door open for the following waves and gun down anything that tries to come through that door.

I like that comparison.

I won't get into the whole 'Kasrkin vs. Stormtrooper' thing, as I'm biased against Kasrkin, but will move speedily on to answer the OP;

I'm sure the Imperial Navy, like the Guard, varies in terms of unit names & structures. The names given to Guard units in the Codex are their generic names/ranks. For example in the Squad profile they're listed as having a Sergeant. In the DKoK list in the Siege of Vraks book a Sergeant is referred to as a Watchmaster (Ridemaster in Death Rider (Rough Rider) units).

There is nothing to stop different Imperial Navy formations from referring to their armed forces in their own way - some might refer to their carapace armoured, hellgun toting soldiers as Stormtroopers, others Security, maybe some might call them Shocktroopers or Naval Marines or whatever. As with most things in 40k its open to interpretation & the freedom for players to create their own lore relevant to their forces/armies/units.

EDIT: On second thoughts...

Kanluwen wrote:Kasrkin are trained to kick the door open, hold that door open for the following waves and gun down anything that tries to come through that door.

This is what the Death Korp of Krieg Grenadiers do. Except they do it often in open ground in conditions that would have a Kasrkin screaming for his resperator and feeling more than a little queezy as the viral agents penetrate through his fatigues and into his skin... The Grenadiers spearhead the attack for the rest of the Regiment to follow up & exploit their assault. They have the highest rate of casualties amongst the DKoK but are never short of volunteers - every Korpsman from Krieg wants to repay the debt of their planets transgressions and are more than willing to pay for it in their blood. Kasrkin might (sensibly) retreat if the odds get too heavy for them to handle and leave them endangered - DKoK Grenadiers won't.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Kasrkin are trained to kick the door open, hold that door open for the following waves and gun down anything that tries to come through that door.

This is what the Death Korp of Krieg Grenadiers do. Except they do it often in open ground in conditions that would have a Kasrkin screaming for his resperator and feeling more than a little queezy as the viral agents penetrate through his fatigues and into his skin... The Grenadiers spearhead the attack for the rest of the Regiment to follow up & exploit their assault. They have the highest rate of casualties amongst the DKoK but are never short of volunteers - every Korpsman from Krieg wants to repay the debt of their planets transgressions and are more than willing to pay for it in their blood. Kasrkin might (sensibly) retreat if the odds get too heavy for them to handle and leave them endangered - DKoK Grenadiers won't.

If we're going to use the Death Korps as an example, I'd suggest you realize that the Grenadiers are considered expendable--same as Kasrkin.

Kasrkin are, to the Cadians, a symbol of their best and brightest. If they fall--they've fallen with a whole heap of the enemy around them.

-Every- Krieg Korpsman is expendable, hence why when Krieg officers have assumed command of non-Krieg units they've had near mutinies - because Krieg officers view casualties with no more interest than they would, as the Siege of Vraks book says, a list of expended ammunition stocks.
It just helps that the Krieg mentality is that when they go to war they expect to die for their Emperor - hope for survival doesn't come into it, which is why the DKoK are known for being grim, quiet and rarely mix with anyone who is not from Krieg.

Krieg soldiers are a wonderful tool in the eyes of a commander willing to use his troops as though they were just numbers/equipment - they won't run from the fight, won't question orders and will lay down their lives without thought for anything other than having done their duty to the Emperor.

Kanluwen wrote:

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Kasrkin are trained to kick the door open, hold that door open for the following waves and gun down anything that tries to come through that door.

This is what the Death Korp of Krieg Grenadiers do. Except they do it often in open ground in conditions that would have a Kasrkin screaming for his resperator and feeling more than a little queezy as the viral agents penetrate through his fatigues and into his skin... The Grenadiers spearhead the attack for the rest of the Regiment to follow up & exploit their assault. They have the highest rate of casualties amongst the DKoK but are never short of volunteers - every Korpsman from Krieg wants to repay the debt of their planets transgressions and are more than willing to pay for it in their blood. Kasrkin might (sensibly) retreat if the odds get too heavy for them to handle and leave them endangered - DKoK Grenadiers won't.

If we're going to use the Death Korps as an example, I'd suggest you realize that the Grenadiers are considered expendable--same as Kasrkin.

Kasrkin are, to the Cadians, a symbol of their best and brightest. If they fall--they've fallen with a whole heap of the enemy around them.

Or they charge a Daemon Host...

Sparks_Havelock wrote:-Every- Krieg Korpsman is expendable, hence why when Krieg officers have assumed command of non-Krieg units they've had near mutinies - because Krieg officers view casualties with no more interest than they would, as the Siege of Vraks book says, a list of expended ammunition stocks.
It just helps that the Krieg mentality is that when they go to war they expect to die for their Emperor - hope for survival doesn't come into it, which is why the DKoK are known for being grim, quiet and rarely mix with anyone who is not from Krieg.

Krieg soldiers are a wonderful tool in the eyes of a commander willing to use his troops as though they were just numbers/equipment - they won't run from the fight, won't question orders and will lay down their lives without thought for anything other than having done their duty to the Emperor.

Gonna quote you something fun here.

"Cadian blood--no blood more precious, no blood more honored."

It's a motto that Aaron Dembski-Bowden laid down about the Cadian Shock, which actually is based upon an earlier blurb by Andy Chambers commenting how the only regiment an officer saw that was more terrifying than the Death Korps was the Cadian Shock with their blood up.

Cadia did not get the reputation they did by sitting back and goofing around. Kasrkin are not considered the closest thing a human can become to an Astartes for no reason.

For heaven's sake, even the Astartes recognize that the Kasrkin are hardcore. You do not get recommended for awards by the Astartes for nothing. Kasrkin were recommended, multiple times, during the 13th Black Crusade by the Space Wolves and Blood Angels both.

In my book, the Navy has "Armsmen" and that's it. The Navy is as big as the Imperium, so it's not entirely impossible that there may be several terms to describe one and the same thing, though in this case I'd simply chalk it down to yet another case of author interpretation and ideas of different writers clashing with each other.

In my book, there's also no such thing as a "generic" Storm Trooper, only "generic" Grenadiers, of which there are far, far more than Storm Troopers. Then again, I'm following GW's vision on this one, and I know that several licensed sources do a very different approach.

As always, however, there's no such thing as a "right" or "wrong" answer here, only personal preferences. So, my advice to the OP would be to just go with what you think is the coolest in your opinion, as there is no consensus or hard fact in this regard anyways.

Kanluwen wrote:Gonna quote you something fun here.

"Cadian blood--no blood more precious, no blood more honored."

It's a motto that Aaron Dembski-Bowden laid down about the Cadian Shock, which actually is based upon an earlier blurb by Andy Chambers commenting how the only regiment an officer saw that was more terrifying than the Death Korps was the Cadian Shock with their blood up.

Cadia did not get the reputation they did by sitting back and goofing around. Kasrkin are not considered the closest thing a human can become to an Astartes for no reason.

For heaven's sake, even the Astartes recognize that the Kasrkin are hardcore. You do not get recommended for awards by the Astartes for nothing. Kasrkin were recommended, multiple times, during the 13th Black Crusade by the Space Wolves and Blood Angels both.

Then we're on a level playing field! Mind you, it wouldn't do the Astartes much good trying to give the Krieg chappies awards - they've no interest in being told 'well done'. Bravery is expected & commonplace for Krieg.

It really is down to personal preference - I find Cadians dull, you find them really interesting - I just enjoy a bit of friendly rivalry/banter between those who prefer different Regiments. End of the day I suppose trying to argue who are the better IG force is just like arguing which country has the best special forces - essentially they all do the same job, the training & equipment differs from one nation to another but otherwise they all have their positives and negatives - just like IG.

We've worked it out amicably then?

Damn. Had my dueling knife out and everything!

Afraid so. We're hi-jacking the thread as it is, but I'm sure we'll get a chance to cross duelling blades at some point in some Guard thread

At risk of diverting the thread, I am hesitant to ask this question; however, I feel those who have commented on this topic have shown a great deal of knowledge concerning elements of the Guard, so I will go ahead and ask.

How is it that Krieg hasn't run out of people yet?

'Vitae Womb' (Living Womb) birthing process - a largely 'unknown' and contraversial thing. The Adeptus Mechanicus Biologis doesn't like it one bit, but beyond that there's little information. I prefer to interpret it as being akin to 'test tube' babies, mass-produced infants to maintain the steady supply of manpower for the Krieg Regiments. This would make sense as Krieg annually tithes the maximum number of Regiments the Adeptus Munitorum allows them each year - some planets will tithe a Regiment to the Imperium every ten years - Krieg will raise multiple Regiments to be tithed within a year and be eager to raise more.

Any ideas on how they get the needed energy to produce all those tube babies? Large influx of foodstuffs? Fission, or 40k equivalent energy creation?

Or is this all shrouded in mystery?

This is a great topic, haven't ventured into this part of dakkadakka before and I'm glad I did!

Haven't really thought about the Armsmen, but have thought plenty about Navy Security.. IMHO they would be equivalent to the Karskin as I've always thought that they are stormtroopers.. (please correct me if I'm wrong)
Can't decide whether they would be like the SEALs, Russian GRU, or CIA SAD (Special Activities Division) Previous posters mentioned the CIA and these pictures are the ones I'm using for reference. Now, the first two are pictures of the 1/6 scale figures that people have created to what they think the SAD members would look like and the last picture is allegedly of a GRU team.

chrisyella wrote:This is a great topic, haven't ventured into this part of dakkadakka before and I'm glad I did!

Haven't really thought about the Armsmen, but have thought plenty about Navy Security.. IMHO they would be equivalent to the Karskin as I've always thought that they are stormtroopers.. (please correct me if I'm wrong)
Can't decide whether they would be like the SEALs, Russian GRU, or CIA SAD (Special Activities Division)

Actually, if my idea of there being three Navy Infantry forces is true (assuming Navy Stormtroopers are not in fact just Security), I'd see it like this in comparison to the Royal Navy:

Armsmen = Armed deck crew (confined to the ship and defend it if necessary)
Security = Royal Marines (provide defence for the Navy, raid other ships and operate on land too)
Stormtroopers = Special Boat Service (covert sabotage and reconaissance)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and reading this Kasrkin vs Stormtroopers argument reminds me of the SAS vs SBS argument.

Do the Space Marines not perform this function in some sort of fashion?

CpatTom wrote:Do the Space Marines not perform this function in some sort of fashion?

They do... but only for SM...
Funny world isn't it?