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How viable are these builds?:

1. V Sergeant w/ PW, 3 Melta Guns, 5 Shotguns, Carapace Upgrade, Chimera
2. V Sergeant w/ PF, 3 Sniper Rifles, Lascannon, Camo Cloak and Snare Mine Upgrade
3. 20 Man Blob, 2 Sergeants w/ PW, Commissar w/ PW
4. Straken, Medic, 2 Bodyguards

Well, with vets, the only doctrine remotely worth taking is demolitions. The rest just simply aren't worth it. Besides, 30pts isn't a small amount of points.

Combat weapons on the sergeants are also pretty useless as you're still 10 T3 5+ models. A fist or a sword is going to do nothing but cost more when they die.

The exception to this is a dedicated assault vet squad I've heard about. Three flamers, shotguns, powerfist. Burn, shotty, stab, punch. Could work in theory, but then again, why waste BS4 on flamers?

The 20man blob is good. I prefer 30-man blobs with 2 meltabombs as well, but that's the idea.

Medic in CCS isn't really worth, even with Straken.

1> Poor.

Too many frills. Power weapon in a dinky 10 man squad isn't likely to do much. Carapace also isn't remotely worth the points it costs. Meltas good, Chimera good. With Guard remember that often minimal upgrades (or very carefully chosen ones) is better than some squad kitted out with everything except the kitchen sink.

2> Awful.

Not a good squad configuration at all. Sniper rifles are jank. Lascannons too expensive and only one shot. Also a mis-match of anti-tank and anti-infantry weapons in the same squad. Camo cloaks/mines upgrade also not worth it.

3> Decent

Power blobs are cool, although I'd add another 10 men (20 gets swept too easily in my experience). Also it's a waste not to fill those special weapon slots (meltas seem to be the usual choice for powerblobs). Arguably not to fill the heavy weapon slots too (personally I like autocannons even in my powerblobs).

4> Iffy.

Too many upgrades of not the right sort. Strakken is awesome, yes. But bodyguards arent that good (and Strakken is less likely to need them than most IG HQs). Some people like Medics but I personally find them a waste of points. Also, you've got 4 special weapon slots in a company command squad. It seems almost criminally wasteful not to put something in there. Personally when I use Strakken I go" Strakken, x4 Melta (sometimes x4 plasma), in a Chimera. No other upgrades. Your mileage may vary.

Personally I like using a combination of these two squads.

10 veteran
3 grenade launchers
1 missle launcher
1 vox caster

10 veteran
3 flamer
6 shot gun
Powerfist and bolt pistol

It's fun to get 3 twin linked krak genades and a twin linked krak missle against monstrous creatures and vechs

Good vets:

Lasguns w/ 3x plasma

Shotguns w/ 3x melta.

There is no reason to have a special weapon on your sarge for plasma since you should not be in melee with them, and if you are you are going to loose anyway. For melta vets you are can take a PW or PF if you really want to, but really those points are better spent on more melta vets. A bolt pistol is a really bad choice for anyone in the army unless you just have a few points left over at the end of the list.

The other stuff is just wasted points. Flamers are not bad but grenade launchers are a waste of the BS4 you just paid 2 points per little guy for.

Medics are OK in CC plasma squads, but really not nearly as valuable as getting another plasma gun.

Vox casters are a bad idea since your guys should be in chimeras and you cant issue orders to units in tanks.

Carapace armor is a bad idea because its expensive and your guys are still T3 so the 4+ save isnt really going to help them much.

With vets its all about getting as much plasma or melta onto the table as humanly possible.

For vet guard lists special characters are not typically used. Mostly because they are expensive. A company command squad with 4 melta or plasma guns is much more devastating then most IC's, and they can give themselves some nasty orders which help them kill above their points value pretty quickly.

Melta guns kill everything. Plasma guns kill everything but heavy vehicles, but have a much further range than melta guns. Other special weapons, next to them, suck. Getting as many of those in a decent mix into your army makes you win as guard. One squad of vets or a CC with flamers if you face orcs or nids is wise, but really just getting lots and lots of vets with melta and plasma guns on the table makes your army really hard to deal with. Put them in Chimera's with multilasers and heavy flamers and you are good to go.
If you have enough points a manticore or 3 and perhaps a hellhound if you fight a lot of horde isnt a bad idea, but remember that the work horse of most good guard lists are the melta and plasma vets.



Also, sniper rifles look really cool but they suck. A sniper rifle is ok at best for killing monstrous creatures and light armored infantry. A plasma gun kills both those things much better and can rapid fire.

Lasguns w/ 3x plasma

Shotguns w/ 3x melta.

Yup!

I see that and I start worrying about what he's running cuz he probably knows Guard and we've got an interesting game going.

Almost anything else and I start relaxing. Valk/Vend across the table makes me go "Great, what's in it?". If the answer is Vets, I start asking what gear they've got. I really start worrying if he was canny enough to buy demolitions (or no demolitions but they do have x3 melta vets).

Yeah. It isnt that complicated now that they've changed the codexes so it cant have Grey Knights or such.

The lasguns vs shotguns is largely irrelevant. Except if he says Shotguns that means he went through the trouble of getting FW shotuns or converting. Which either way means he probably knows what he's doing with Guard hence my respect level goes up a notch.

Tabitha wrote:Lasguns w/ 3x plasma

Shotguns w/ 3x melta.

Vet's are best mobilised; preferably in Valkyries or Vendttas.

Peace Out!
Jonny!

RubberJonny wrote:

Tabitha wrote:Lasguns w/ 3x plasma

Shotguns w/ 3x melta.

Vet's are best mobilised; preferably in Valkyries or Vendttas.

Peace Out!
Jonny!

I prfer the above loadout, but in Chimera. Vendettas run empty.
I'd rather you have to worry about 2 AV12 vehicles, so both. the
Vendettas is perfect as is. move 6", fire all lascannons.

Ivan wrote:

Lasguns w/ 3x plasma

Shotguns w/ 3x melta.

Yup!

I see that and I start worrying about what he's running cuz he probably knows Guard and we've got an interesting game going.

Almost anything else and I start relaxing. Valk/Vend across the table makes me go "Great, what's in it?". If the answer is Vets, I start asking what gear they've got. I really start worrying if he was canny enough to buy demolitions (or no demolitions but they do have x3 melta vets).

Yeah. It isnt that complicated now that they've changed the codexes so it cant have Grey Knights or such.

The lasguns vs shotguns is largely irrelevant. Except if he says Shotguns that means he went through the trouble of getting FW shotuns or converting. Which either way means he probably knows what he's doing with Guard hence my respect level goes up a notch.

Lasguns with plasma rifles because they are both 24" range rapid fire weapons.

Shotguns with Melta because they are both 12" assault weapons. Sometimes if you melta and shotgun enough of them you can try assaulting to force a route, especially if it looks like you would get assaulted the next turn. Guard suck at the assault, but the shotguns at least give them the option.

Leonus Cohol wrote:How viable are these builds?:

2. V Sergeant w/ PF, 3 Sniper Rifles, Lascannon, Camo Cloak and Snare Mine Upgrade

uhm, that is a crappy build. apparently these guys are supposed to lie in the mud and shoot. And they will never assault. So why the pf? Also you have different targets to shoot with snipers and lascannons

Blacksails wrote: why waste BS4 on flamers

Because there is nothing better than a drive by flaming or stepping out your Valkyrie with shotguns and flamers right in front of his HWS, Guardians or Ork mob and toasting them

I dont tailor lists so I always take one vet squad with flamers/shotguns for the non 3+ armour saves Armies. If I have a spare 30 points they get demolitions for dual role.

For me at least they also do tend to do better against Devestators/Long Fangs in cover than a comparable meltavet squad (somebody else will have to do the mathshammer).

Max melta vets in a Chimera and Max plasma vets in a Chimera are the staples of veteran loadouts, no doubt, but I like dedicating a Vet squad to clear out enemy held objectives effectively:

Vets
Shotguns, Two flamers, Heavy Flamer, Sgt w/ Power Weapon in a Chimera (Vendettas are bullet magnets imo).

Whatever survives the enfilade should either die in CC or contest the objective for a couple turns.

And there are other ways to Kit out Veterans to make them situationally effective. Again, if your facing a Mech List, the Melta Spam should work very well. Though I sometimes use Vets Krak Grenades instead (in some situations).

MeltaVets are simply amazing for 100 points; however, as for condemning Triple-Flamer Vets, one should actually look at their usefulness.

Yes..SWS flamer squads are cheaper than Vets with 3x flamers, except that you also have to purchase a platoon to gain access to them. If you are playing pure MechVets for 3x Melta/Plasma units in Chimeras, then the SWS ins't an option, and trying to fit a platoon in just to get them, can end up costing you more that then 85 point flamer vets.

I regularly throw in 85 point Flamer vets into my Vendettas, when I run a pure Vet list. You are not "wasting BS4" on flamers, anymore than SM players are, when they take flamers. The Flamers are there to deal with infantry that either gets too close, is camping an objective, or is hiding in cover. Flamers do these jobs very well, especially against armies such as Eldar, DE, and Orks. They are also a fairly inexpensive way to make your Vends scoring.

If you have all your AT needs covered in a MechVets list, then cheap flamer vets can be a nice addition.

If they're Meltavets, in a Mech list, i find that my Chimera usually have enough HHF to cover
my flamer needs. I CAN'T waste the BS4 on flamers. my brain just won't see it as a choice.....

alarmingrick wrote:If they're Meltavets, in a Mech list, i find that my Chimera usually have enough HHF to cover
my flamer needs. I CAN'T waste the BS4 on flamers. my brain just won't see it as a choice.....

Except that chimeras aren't fast and aren't skimmers. By adding FlamerVets to an empty Vendetta, you now have a fast unit that can burn out troublesome infanttry units, or provide the Vend with a measure of insurance against infantry asaults. Triple flamers coming out of a fast skimmer can turn often turn the tide of a battle, when used properly. If you have ever used (or been the victim of) Eldar Storm Guardians with 2 flamers + Detructor, then you know what I am talking about - and those Guardians cost more points than Flamer Vets.

Also, by putting FlamerVets in vends, you end up with a scoring vend that now has dual roles (lascannons for tanks and flamers for infantry), just as MeltaVet Chims have dual roles (melta for tanks, HHF for infantry).

I am not saying that every list should have FlamerVets, not by a long shot. I am simply pointing out that they can be very useful to Vet lists that have thier AT covered and would like to make their Vends scoring, and/or are looking for some fast anti-infatntry fire that ignores cover.

True, we're not advocating that people should max out Falmer Vet squads, but merely showing the value of different loadouts.

Oh, and I stick mine in a Chimera for the Smoke Launchers...

My vets or what I like to call Arbites are equipped with carapace, powerfist, shotguns and either 3x flamers or grenade launchers in a Chimera.

I also add a Priest with a evisorator in there some times.

MrFlutterPie wrote:My vets or what I like to call Arbites are equipped with carapace, powerfist, shotguns and either 3x flamers or grenade launchers in a Chimera.

I also add a Priest with a evisorator in there some times.

Sounds like an absolutely awesome fluff-unit

For competitive vet options, you have:
3xplasma, (lascannon/autocannon), chimera - standard anti-TEQ unit, heavy weapon depends on play-style/pts
3xmelta, (autocannon), chimera - standard anti-tank unit, heavy weapon depends on play-style/pts
3xmelta, (demolitions), vendetta - alpha strike anti-tank unit, decent, doesn't fit all armies, needs first turn to be really effective
2x melta, heavy flamer, (demolitions), vendetta - generalist unit, can seriously hurt anything and everything, does best in armies that play more untraditionally (outflanking is what these guys do best). These guys were my top performing unit with my earlier play-style
3x plasma, lascannon, forward sentries - objective campers that will put out the hurt

Harker opens up a few options more, but they are all much more specialized and army-dependent.

Illumini wrote:

MrFlutterPie wrote:My vets or what I like to call Arbites are equipped with carapace, powerfist, shotguns and either 3x flamers or grenade launchers in a Chimera.

I also add a Priest with a evisorator in there some times.

Sounds like an absolutely awesome fluff-unit

Thanks!

I run a full Arbite army using 2ed and Necromunda Arbites models and the IG codex.

I mostly play for fun so I really get a kick out of my thin black line.

But it's not too bad when you run up to somebody unload 8 shotguns, 3 flamers then assault with 6 power fist attacks that reroll misses. It does the job sometimes.