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Just a quick question.

I'm playing a game today, I win initiative and move my deff koptas 24" during their scout move. Then during my turn I move them another 12". Now my opponent takes his first turn and goes to shoot the koptas, do they still get the 3+ cover save granted from the turbo booster special rule?

I think I should based on the faq "Q: During the first turn of the game does a Scout move count as the preceding Movement phase when working out any saves from shooting, for example the 3+ cover save from turbo boosting, and the to hit rolls in combat against vehicles? (p76)
A: Yes."

then the USR on pg 76, "the following enemy shooting phase the bike benefits from a cover save of 3+"

Thanks for helping me out with my question.

No. If your opponent had gone first, they'd get the cover save. Since you went first and didn't turbo them, they don't get it.

Technically they would still get the cover save.....unless the FAQ or TO says otherwise.

Nungunz wrote:Technically they would still get the cover save.....unless the FAQ or TO says otherwise.

No, they wouldn't. They only get the cover save if they boosted in the previous movement phase. Since he boosted, then moved normally, they don't get the cover save.

If his opponent had gotten the first turn they would've had the cover save because they boosted in the previous movement (scouting) phase.

Agree with rigeld2. If you only make the 12" move during your first turn then you don't count as turbo-boosting and therefore no cover save. Now if you move 12" during your scout and then turbo-boost during your first turn you would get your save.

Just playing devil's advocate here, not how I play it.

Page 76: "...In the following enemy shooting phase...." about midway through the paragraph.

Scout: move 24"
Turn one: Move 12"
Turn one: Enemy shoots (enemy's following shooting phase) so a 3+ is granted.

They do not.

The key phrases are 'preceding movement phase' in the FAQ and the last line of the Turbo Booster USR

Lets look at this step by step:

If your opponent goes first:

Scout movement: 24" (you are turbo boosting)
They're movement phase: Previous movement phase is scout movement, you turbo boosted. They get a 3+ cover.

If you go first:
Scout movement: 24" (you are tubo boosting)
Your movement: You move 12" (you are no longer turbo boosting as you did not move at least 18" that movement phase).
Their movement: Previous movement phase you did not turbo boost. You do not have a 3+ cover save.

@Nungunz: You missed the last sentence.

"A unit using turbo-boosters must end its move at least 18" away from its starting point to claim this cover save, as it relies on flat-out speed."

They did not end their movement at least 18" away from where they last were, thus they did not move flat out, and ergo did not turbo boost.

Ok upon re-reading Turbo-boosters and considering the FAQ it would seem that this is just like the conversation I was involved in on another forum regarding Baal Predators and their Smoke Launchers in the scout move.

The letter of the rules is that as Nungunz has said you would still be gaining the cover save as an enemy shooting phase has not passed. Whether or not a TO would allow this or your opponent would be cool with this is another issue.

Moral of the story, Don't try this in casual games lest you wish to be called a WAAC player and lower your pool of opponents. For tournaments bring it up with the TO first.

@WanderingFox: The point behind this tactic is that they use the Turbo-boosters in the scout move requiring the unit move at least 18" and in their movement phase they are not using the Turbo-Booster but because an enemy shooting phase has not past they have not lost the cover save.

Yes I get that, but the last line of the Tubro Boosters USR specifically states that you must have moved flat out in order to retain the save, as they did not move flat out in their last movement (only 12") they immediately lose the save in question.

WanderingFox wrote:They do not.

The key phrases are 'preceding movement phase' in the FAQ and the last line of the Turbo Booster USR

That's all well and good.....but could you point out where exactly Turboboosters ever mentions a 'preceding movement phase'?

If you go first:
Scout movement: 24" (you are tubo boosting)
Your movement: You move 12" (you are no longer turbo boosting as you did not move at least 18" that movement phase).
Their movement: Previous movement phase you did not turbo boost. You do not have a 3+ cover save.

Once again. Turboboosters never makes mention of a 'previous movement phase'. All it does is mention "enemy's next shooting phase".

@Nungunz: You missed the last sentence.

"A unit using turbo-boosters must end its move at least 18" away from its starting point to claim this cover save, as it relies on flat-out speed."

They did not end their movement at least 18" away from where they last were, thus they did not move flat out, and ergo did not turbo boost.

I'd didn't miss it. As they ended their movement over 18" away during the scout move. The '...in the enemy's next shooting phase...' clause kicks in. Even if they only move 12" in turn one there is nothing that has negated the original "in the enemy's next shooting phase' clause....it's still in effect from the scout move.


Would I ever play this way? Not unless a TO ruled it as such, but never-the-less the turbobooster save still carries over as nothing interrupts the criteria that enables the save from the scout move.

Its not in the turbo boosters usr... its in the scout move FAQ.

Read what I wrote...

"Q: During the first turn of the game does a Scout move
count as the preceding Movement phase when working
out any saves from shooting, for example the 3+ cover
save from turbo-boosting, and the to hit rolls in
combat against vehicles? (p76)
A: Yes."

So scout movement counts as a 'preceeding movement phase' ergo they did not turbo boost in THE CURRENT movement phase. Since they did not move flat out in the CURRENT movement phase, the last line of the Turbo Boosters USR kicks in and states that they do not get the cover save as they did not end their movement 18"+ away from where they started.

Where is the "lost it if they don't continue to move 18"+ clause" at? Reading the last sentence tells me that if they wish to gain the cover save they must move 18"+ in the movement phase which they use Turbo-Boosters. The FAQ tells us that the Scout Move counts as a movement phase itself for purposes of using Turbo-Boosters, Fast Vehicles moving Flat-out, Vehicles being hit and thanks to the BA FAQ using Smoke. Turbo-Boosters state that their cover save kicks in during the next enemy shooting phase when they are used. There exists no clause in official rules or official FAQs that state that if the bikes that scout move use their Turbo-Boosters in the Scout Move that they are required to do so again in their following movement phase in order to keep the bonus. This is one of the places I feel that simple logic fell through the cracks when making a ruling on the rules,

WanderingFox wrote:Its not in the turbo boosters usr... its in the scout move FAQ.

Read what I wrote...

"Q: During the first turn of the game does a Scout move
count as the preceding Movement phase when working
out any saves from shooting, for example the 3+ cover
save from turbo-boosting, and the to hit rolls in
combat against vehicles? (p76)
A: Yes."

So scout movement counts as a 'preceeding movement phase' ergo they did not turbo boost in THE CURRENT movement phase. Since they did not move flat out in the CURRENT movement phase, the last line of the Turbo Boosters USR kicks in and states that they do not get the cover save as they did not end their movement 18"+ away from where they started.

It also says during the first turn of the game ...; Its both the first turn of the game and my opponents first turn. That's what leads me to believe I should get the save. and I'm curious nungunz, why wouldn't you play this way?

sirlynchmob, I am sure Nungunz reasoning is the same as mine, it is an a-hole move and can cause one to lose opponents as well as give one a reputation of being a WAAC player which unless someone wants to test something out that is considered to be overpowered many players don't like playing WAAC players.

sirlynchmob wrote:It also says during the first turn of the game ...; Its both the first turn of the game and my opponents first turn. That's what leads me to believe I should get the save. and I'm curious nungunz, why wouldn't you play this way?

Right. In other words, the scout movement counts for all purposes as if it was the movement from the previous game turn. Imagine, for a moment, that all of this was happening on T2. Would you get the save if you turbo'd in T1 and then moved 12" in T2 and then your opponent attacked? No. That's ridiculous and obviously wrong (at least i'm assuming we can all agree about that).

What the scout FAQ is saying is exactly that, however. The scout move counts as your movement phase from 'turn 0' thus when you get your 'turn 1' movement, its no longer turbo boosting and is instead just sitting there at the start of that movement.

WanderingFox wrote:Right. In other words, the scout movement counts for all purposes as if it was the movement from the previous turn. Imagine, for a moment, that all of this was happening on T2. Would you get the save if you turbo'd in T1 and then moved 12" in T2 and then your opponent attacked? No. That's ridiculous and obviously wrong (at least i'm assuming we can all agree about that).

No you wouldn't run into this issue because the following enemy Shooting phase has come and gone where with the scout move it hasn't.

WanderingFox wrote:What the scout FAQ is saying is exactly that, however. The scout move counts as your movement phase from 'turn 0' thus when you get your 'turn 1' movement, its no longer turbo boosting and is instead just sitting there at the start of that movement.

Um no that's not what the FAQ is saying, it is saying you treat the scout move as a preceding Movement phase not as 'turn 0'

Which is always a turn before the current movement phase... Which is always in the next turn...

You're hung up on part of the wording without looking at the whole thing.

Okay the following enemy shooting phase, let's go with that for a moment.

By that logic, I can: Turbo boost some koptas in scout movement. Move them in my turn, FIRE THEM in my turn, ASSAULT them in my turn, and then STILL have a turbo-boosted cover save in my enemies turn.

That simply does not make any sense and is clearly not RAI. Since it's clearly not RAI and the RAW is, for at least this example, vague then no one in their right mind will ever rule it as okay.

By all means are you welcome to try, but I can't see it going over well...

WanderingFox, by all means I agree with you this isn't RAI but we don't argue RAI in this forum we argue RAW and the RAW of it makes no logical sense. This same tactic works for Baal Predators and smoke launchers as well because of the wording used.

Yes by the way the rules are written the koptas can turbo-boost in the scout move, move and fire then assault in turn 1 (assuming the ork player gets to go first) and qualify for the turbo-boost cover save which they now wont get because they are in assault unless they wiped the unit they assaulted. This is true for Space Marine Scout Bike squads as well.

I guess...

My advice then is to be prepared to be throttled if you try and pull that kind of crap anywhere

Kinda why I posted this but if someone were to try it, the rules allow it so there is no ground to stand on to oppose it unless in a tournament where they and their own rules regarding this issue.

Saiisil wrote:Moral of the story, Don't try this in casual games lest you wish to be called a WAAC player and lower your pool of opponents. For tournaments bring it up with the TO first.