Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I didn't see any topics on this, so I thought I'd ask. I'm a little unsure about the wording on the Death Ray weapon on the Doom Scythe - the phrase "Every unit (friendly or enemy) suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models in the unit underneath the line."

Does this mean that hitting one model will hit the entirety of a 30-model squad of boys? Or does it only apply a number of hits equal to the number of models under the line? It's kind of awkwardly worded (at least to me). Any thoughts? It just seems that it'd be a crazy broken shot if it could easily crush an entire army in one well-placed shot.

If there is 5 models under the line then 5 hits are made on that unit. If there is 12 models under the line then 12 hits are made on that unit.

With the vagaries of the English language it can be read either way. However until FAQed I would play it that you only get as many hits as there are models under the line.

It seems pretty explicit to me. every model in the unit suffers.

Otherwise, they wouldn't bother talking about the unit. Blood Lance and Jaws of the world wolf make no mention of enemy units, they specify models. This ability differs.

They talk about the unit because the Death Ray can hit multiple units. Without it you would get as many guys as there were models under the line, even if they're from different units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Make that as many HITS as there were models under the line, even if they're from different units. Sometimes I really hate predictive text on my cell phone.

"Every unit (friendly or enemy) suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models in the unit underneath the line."

This appears pretty simple to me, although I can see where the confusion is coming from.

Lets break it down...
1.You have a line
2. it passes through units
3. those units take a number of hits
4. this number is equal to the number of models underneath the line in the unit

It almost had to be worded this way because saying that the units take a number of hits=to the number of models under the line would imply the total across all the units.

The reason it specifies units as what take the hits and not models is because the death ray still allows for wound allocation.

As such, the number of models over which the line passes in a unit are the number of hits that unit suffers.

Thanks for the help. The main reason I ask is because a couple of my friends are still under the assumption that if the line touches a single model in the unit, it automatically hits every model in the unit. It's been bugging me ever since I read the codex, since it read to me that every model under the line took the hit, not every model in the unit. And I do see the need for the wording like that, though it still seems kinda awkwardly written.

Definitely not as powerful as I thought, but still a kinda nasty ability. As an Ork player, I'm just happy that it makes hits, it doesn't single out individual models (so no ripping through my 30-wound Nob anymore ). Again, thanks for the help.

Point them to the other line based powers in the codex. While this is hardly solid evidence, they all lean towards the "line crosses a unit, that unit takes x hits where x is the number of models in that unit the line crosses"

It was a little confusing for me at first as well, but it's meant to avoid even more confusion (somehow).

Basically, if there are 5 models under the line in one unit, and 3 in another, the one unit will suffer 5 hits, and the other will suffer 3. It prevents the player from allocating all the hits to one unit or another.

I think the somewhat strange formulation was chosen to avoid two problems in particular.

1. To avoid "you hit models under the line". (e.g. JoTWW)

Seeing the amount of character-sniping and griefing the inept wording of JoTWW has caused, they wanted to avoid "hit models under the line" and include a formulation that uses the "normal" allocation of hits rule.

2. To avoid cross-unit hits if more than one unit is hit.

I.e. If you have a unit of Tac Marines (10 total) with 3 models under the line and a unit of Terminators (10 total) with 2 models under the line; they need to take hits equal to the "number of models in the unit underneath the line" in order to take 3 and 2 hits respectively. If the wording would have been that a unit takes hits equal to the number of models (silence) under the line, both Tac Marines and Terminators would have taken 5 hits each, as the second crucial "in the unit" restriction would have been missing.

This is one of the most poorly written rules I have ever seen, it literally can be read to mean two different things.

"Every model in the unit under the line"

Now this can be read to mean, every model you have in that unit directly under the line take a hit, you draw a line over 3 Gaunts, you hit 3 Gaunts.

Or it can be read as every model in a unit under the line takes a hit.

This needs an FAQ post haste because you can read this 2 totally different ways, both being right. I am hoping that it is models under the line, otherwise this is just silly.

doubled wrote:This is one of the most poorly written rules I have ever seen, it literally can be read to mean two different things.

Actually you just proposed two wordings that are worse

doubled wrote:
"Every model in the unit under the line"

Now this can be read to mean, every model you have in that unit directly under the line take a hit, you draw a line over 3 Gaunts, you hit 3 Gaunts.

That would allow "sniping" of characters, sergants, etc.. in the way it is done with JoTWW. NOT where you want to go. It is not "models" that are hit. It is a unit that is hit with X-number of hits which need to be determined by some means.

doubled wrote:
Or it can be read as every model in a unit under the line takes a hit.

No, it cannot be read that way. Again, you don't hit models. You hit a unit x-times. That x for a given unit is equal to, quote, "the number of models in the unit under the line".

doubled wrote:
I am hoping that it is models under the line, otherwise this is just silly.

Don't hit "Models". We've learned very, very, very, very, very, very painfully since the release of the Space Wolves codex, that this leads to no end of pain and griefing.

I totally read it as "suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models in the unit underneath the line." "Underneath the line" is an adjective phrase to clarify the word "unit" and not the word "models".

But, this is incredibly ambiguous. For 175 points, on a AV11 vehicle, I would expect the more powerful reading is the intended one.

Example as above.

Doom Scythe shoots its Death Ray. The Line crosses two different units. One of 10 Tac Marines (3 under the line). One of 10 Terminators (2 under the line).

How many hits? And how are hits allocated between these two units?




It is the "in the unit" that is a second restriction, which is in there for the clarification of "multi-unit-hits".

Zweischneid wrote:Example as above.

Doom Scythe shoots its Death Ray. The Line crosses two different units. One of 10 Tac Marines (3 under the line). One of 10 Terminators (2 under the line).

How many hits? And how are hits allocated between these two units?




It is the "in the unit" that is the adjective phrase, which is in there for the clarification of "multi-unit-hits".

I'd say that all 10 Tac Marines and all 10 Terminators are hit.

If they really meant to say it the other way, they'd just have written "Each unit suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models from that unit that the line crossed."

Grakmar wrote:
If they really meant to say it the other way, they'd just have written "Each unit suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models from that unit that the line crossed."

That is what they wrote. Just that a model is not "from a unit" unless it has left said unit. As long as it is still with it, it is "in the unit". And they didn't use "crossed" but "underneath" as that is the same formulation they use with "non-line-shaped" templates already. "cross" in the sense of "intersect" is a word you'd use with two moving "objects" (two lines cross, cross ones arms, etc..) or moving from point A to B (cross a bridge).

This is painfully clear, to me. The Death Ray works just like Jaws of the World Wolf. It hits models that touch the line. Here is the wording:

"Every unit (friendly or enemy) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models in the unit underneath the line."

If your line moves through a mob of Ork Boyz, but only goes over 6 of them, only 6 take hits.

To read it otherwise would mean that they repeated the "underneath the line" at the beginning of the clause and the at the end of the clause for no reason. That is redundant. If that were correct, it would read like:

"Anything underneath the line suffers hits underneath the line."

That is improper grammar. To say that the last "underneath the line" describes the "unit" is incorrect. The subject of the second part of the sentence is "number". "of models" describes what kind of number and "underneath the line" describes the subject as a whole.

puma713 wrote:This is painfully clear, to me. The Death Ray works just like Jaws of the World Wolf. It hits models that touch the line. Here is the wording:

Actually, it specifically tries to avoid the poor wording of JoTWW. JoTWW allowed you to snipe specific models (put the line over the Powerfist-guy, Powerfist-guy goes). Death Ray is tamer. Put the line over the Powerfist-guy, unit takes 1 hit allocated as normal by the player of the unit taking hits.

Grakmar wrote: For 175 points, on a AV11 vehicle, I would expect the more powerful reading is the intended one.

I have to agree with this 100% for an argument in it being the more powerful version. Look at a ravager, you get about the same vehicle stats except 3 Dark lances for 105. If it is not, then this vehicle is way over priced for what it does.

Zweischneid wrote:

puma713 wrote:This is painfully clear, to me. The Death Ray works just like Jaws of the World Wolf. It hits models that touch the line. Here is the wording:

Actually, it specifically tries to avoid the poor wording of JoTWW. JoTWW allowed you to snipe specific models (put the line over the Powerfist-guy, Powerfist-guy goes). Death Ray is tamer. Put the line over the Powerfist-guy, unit takes 1 hit allocated as normal by the player of the unit taking hits.

It may try to avoid it, but it works the same way. Break the sentence down gramatically:

"Every unit (friendly or enemy) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models in the unit underneath the line."

Subject Every unit
Adjective underneath the line
Verb suffers hits
Adverb 1 equal to the number of models
Adverb 2 (modifies adverb 1) in the unit
Adverb 3 (modifies adverb 2) underneath the line



Edited for clarification.

puma713 wrote:
"Every unit (friendly or enemy) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models in the unit underneath the line."

Subject Every unit
Adjective underneath the line
Verb (and incidentally a split-infinitive) suffers hits
Adverb 1 equal to the number of models in the unit
Adverb 2 (modifies adverb 1) underneath the line

That is my point. With JoTWW, the subject is "model", not "unit". With Death Ray it is "unit", not "model".

The number of hits are identical, but the allocation isn't. Take 10 Tac Marines with a PF-Serg.

1. JoTWW: Line crosses one model, which happens to be the PF-Serg. Thus, it's the PF-Serg that gets removed as he's been targeted as a "model".

2. Death Ray: Line crosses one model, which happens to be the PF-Serg. Unit takes one hit and if that hit is a kill, player removes a regular Tac Marine as by the wound-allocation rules of the "unit" that was hit.

Zweischneid wrote:

puma713 wrote:
"Every unit (friendly or enemy) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models in the unit underneath the line."

Subject Every unit
Adjective underneath the line
Verb (and incidentally a split-infinitive) suffers hits
Adverb 1 equal to the number of models in the unit
Adverb 2 (modifies adverb 1) underneath the line

That is my point. With JoTWW, the subject is "model", not "unit". With Death Ray it is "unit", not "model".

The number of hits are identical, but the allocation isn't. Take 10 Tac Marines with a PF-Serg.

1. JoTWW: Line crosses one model, which happens to be the PF-Serg. Thus, it's the PF-Serg that gets removed as he's been targeted as a "model".

2. Death Ray: Line crosses one model, which happens to be the PF-Serg. Unit takes one hit and if that hit is a kill, player removes a regular Tac Marine as by the wound-allocation rules of the "unit" that was hit.

Well allocation is something I haven't even really considered yet. I'm still hung up on the fact that people think if 1 model in a 30-boyz unit is hit, that all 30 boyz take a hit.

Edit: Zweischneid, sounds like your interpretation is correct, that you can't snipe with the Death Ray.

knightpredator wrote:

Grakmar wrote: For 175 points, on a AV11 vehicle, I would expect the more powerful reading is the intended one.

I have to agree with this 100% for an argument in it being the more powerful version. Look at a ravager, you get about the same vehicle stats except 3 Dark lances for 105. If it is not, then this vehicle is way over priced for what it does.

I think it is still plenty powerful with the "lesser" reading. Remember that you perfectly control both end-points of the line and hits are automatic. Also, the Ravager is an undercosted no-brainer that should cost more.

Edit Puma713: I "think" it is the effort to make sniping impossible, yet still get the "basic general effect" for a line-type attack, that has led to the perhaps awkward formulation of the rule.

I think it's pretty obvious that they intended that you get n hits per unit, where n is the number of models in that unit who were actually under the line.

For 175 points, that interpretation is still incredibly powerful. If the "hits every model in the unit" were true, it would be absolutely fething stupid. you could easily wipe out 90 boyz in one shot.

It's 175 points because you can deep strike in and whip out a parking lot that turn.

Ostrakon wrote:I think it's pretty obvious that they intended that you get n hits per unit, where n is the number of models in that unit who were actually under the line.

No other interpretation is valid.

On to the secondary question.. can you hit a unit that is in combat? Can you hit your own unit?

Camarodragon wrote:On to the secondary question.. can you hit a unit that is in combat? Can you hit your own unit?

Yes and yes.

Hit it with it's own deathray!

Looks like this issue is covered with an errata out currently only in spanish language, but it appears (from my reading) to clearly change the rule to only hit the number of models the line crosses, not every single model in a unit touched by the line.

because the Spanish book said it DID hit every model in the unit. Thus the rapid change