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So, to put up the relevant portion of everliving

If the model is placed in coherency with one or more friendly units that it is eligible to join, it automatically joins one of those units (your choice)...

The situation breaks down like so: Warior squad is wiped to 0, and so can't stand up under the reanimation protocol rule. Warrior squad has a necron lord attached to them. Necron lord doesn't have the independent character rule, but passes his ever living roll like a champ. I see 3 possibilities, and want ya'lls thoughts on the matter. Listed in the order of likelihood.

1.) The Necron Lord stands up and wonders where his unit went.
2.) He can join a unit within 5" (3" + 2" coherency).
3.) He stands up, and allows for RP rolls since he was joined to the unit.

Option One. Since there's no models of the unit left, he stands back up all by himself.

But when he is attached to the unit he is part of the unit (like wolfguard). I really think that option 3 is viable, but it really needs an FAQ

Lightcavalier wrote:But when he is attached to the unit he is part of the unit (like wolfguard). I really think that option 3 is viable, but it really needs an FAQ

Yes, but his Reanimation Protocol is replaced by Ever Living, which through my interpretation means that even though the Warriors in the unit died and did not get their Reanimation Protocol, the Lord is still apart of the 'unit' but he's the only one left alive and stands back up and is the lone unit in that 'unit'. Which could also means that you don't get the Kill Point for the Warriors until you kill the Lord.

It does need to be FAQ'd.

He has both actually, but option 3 isn't an option as in the RP rule it states that if a character is the only one standing, such as the Necron Lord, he doesn't allow RP rolls. Missed that first read through.

"If the model had joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, and the roll was passed, it must be returned to play, with a single Wound, in coherency with that unit as explained in Reanimation Protocols."

Okay so this tells us that if it gets back up, it must join the unit it was in. Fairly obvious.

Now for Reanimation protocols:

"return one of the slain models to play with a single Wound, placed in coherency with a model from its unit that has not itself returned through Reanimation Protocols this phase. Models returning to play in this fashion must be placed at least 1" from enemy models. If the model's unit is engaged in close combat, the model immediately piles in. Models that cannot be placed in this way do not return."

This precludes option #1 It was part of a unit. That unit is now gone. It thus has no model that did not use RP that phase. Lord is destroyed.

Option #2 is also invalidated by the same quote above.

"Note that characters do not count as part of the unit for purposes of Reanimation Protocols - if a character is the only survivor of a unit, his presence is not sufficient to allow a Reanimation Protocols roll, so remove any remaining counters."

Assuming that 'characters' is a reference to the "(Character)" that shows up after the unit type on several models in the army, this would mean that an ever-living character getting back up from a wiped out unit does not allow RP for the rest of the unit. This eliminates option #3.


This now begs the question of "what happens?"

As far as I understand it, if a character model is in a unit, and the whole unit is wiped out the character is gone. This is the case if it's an IC or not.

If part of the character's unit is still up at the end of the phase, the Character gets its everliving roll and can stand up in coherency with his unit.

If the Character was solo, it gets its Ever-living role and then gets up within 3" of where it went down. If it gets up within coherency of a friendly unit it joins it. If it gets up within coherency of multiple, you can choose which one it joins.

I'm getting a bit confused though. In the RP rule, it states that Characters never count as being joined to a unit for the purposes of RP.

You are talking about this line, yes?

Note that characters do not count as part of the unit for purposes of Reanimation Protocols - if a character is the only survivor of a unit, his presence is not sufficient to allow a Reanimation Protocols roll, so remove any remaining counters.

What that is saying is: If the character is the only survivor in a unit, you cannot make RP because the unit is gone and the character, by itself, does not count as part of the unit in order to allow RP to be taken by the rest of the downed models.

No where does that state that this means the character can get up independently of the unit. For that you need to read the ever-living rules, which state:

If a model with this special rule is removed as a casualty, do not add a Reanimation Protocols counter to its unit. Instead place an Ever-living counter where the model was removed from play. At the end of the phase, roll for this counter, just as you would for a Reanimation Protocols counter.

...

If the model had joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, and the roll was passed, it must be returned to play, with a single Wound, in coherency with that unit as explained in Reanimation Protocols.

...

If the returning model cannot be placed, for whatever reason, it is lost and does not return. If the roll was failed, remove the counter from play.


That clear it up a little bit? I agree completely the wording is awkward and needs a FAQ >_<

Ah, yes! Thanks!

Lightcavalier wrote:But when he is attached to the unit he is part of the unit (like wolfguard). I really think that option 3 is viable, but it really needs an FAQ

The rules never say this. The Wolfguard rules actually go out of their way to describe how the Wolfguard become one of the unit. The Royal Court are still Infantry (Character) and don't lose this distinction by becoming a part of the unit.

I would say #1, backed up by the rules listed above.

Agree with Fox , unit gone - no come back for the Ever-living model .

If it wasnt in a unit , then it gets the chance to come back

EL gives the model the chance to come back independently as long as it wasnt part of a wiped out unit

Model with RP needs a non-dead model from the unit to reform on , so the character needs a slightly different rule from RP as it can operate independently if it so chooses

Dynamix wrote:Agree with Fox , unit gone - no come back for the Ever-living model .

If it wasnt in a unit , then it gets the chance to come back

EL gives the model the chance to come back independently as long as it wasnt part of a wiped out unit

Model with RP needs a non-dead model from the unit to reform on , so the character needs a slightly different rule from RP as it can operate independently if it so chooses

Completely disagree, the lord has it, the warriors don't, the lord gets it, the warriors dont. Simple, and accurate. RAW, there should not be any confusion here!

The downed Lord, if Reanimated, is placed within 3" of the EL marker per RAW. The unit he joined no longer exists thus he reverts back to not having joined a unit.

Unless there is some portion of the rules that Fox has not posted, it looks to me as if he has nailed it.

I'm in agreement, as was my opponent when that happened in today's game. Doesn't really seem to make sense otherwise, as we saw it.

Heh. He kept making his Ever-Living roll, too.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:
The downed Lord, if Reanimated, is placed within 3" of the EL marker per RAW. The unit he joined no longer exists thus he reverts back to not having joined a unit.

I can see this as the only option really. RAW may state the Lord dies, but then...why does he have Ever Living at all? A Lord (and Cryptek for that matter) can never be alone, they are always part of a unit. Be it the Royal Court or the squad they join, they're part of a unit so why bother with Ever Living at all if they'd die when the unit they join is wiped? They'd just have RP if that was the case.

Dynamix wrote:Agree with Fox , unit gone - no come back for the Ever-living model .

If it wasnt in a unit , then it gets the chance to come back

EL gives the model the chance to come back independently as long as it wasnt part of a wiped out unit

Model with RP needs a non-dead model from the unit to reform on , so the character needs a slightly different rule from RP as it can operate independently if it so chooses

Only an Overlord can act independently, a regular Lord must always be a part of a unit (usually). It's either part of the Royal Court unit (unless the Lord is all you have, I'll come to that later) or it's part of the unit it joins. If it were to die when this unit was wiped out, then it would simply have Reanimation Protocols and no Ever Living. Further, in case someone raises the issue that "Oh you can take a single model Royal Court, so that's why they need it" I seriously doubt GW expects people to take a single model Royal Court in anything larger than 1k points. If it were a case that a one model Court needed a special indication to repair, this would be better served as a special rule in the Court rather than giving every Cryptek and Lord Ever Living.

Dytalus wrote:Only an Overlord can act independently, a regular Lord must always be a part of a unit (usually). It's either part of the Royal Court unit (unless the Lord is all you have, I'll come to that later) or it's part of the unit it joins. If it were to die when this unit was wiped out, then it would simply have Reanimation Protocols and no Ever Living. Further, in case someone raises the issue that "Oh you can take a single model Royal Court, so that's why they need it" I seriously doubt GW expects people to take a single model Royal Court in anything larger than 1k points. If it were a case that a one model Court needed a special indication to repair, this would be better served as a special rule in the Court rather than giving every Cryptek and Lord Ever Living.

In case it is the last survivor of a unit.

If an entire unit of necrons is wiped out, character and all, then nothing in the unit gets a reanimation protocol. For IC purposes, ICs can not ever leave a unit in the shooting or assault phases, and I see nothing in the rules that state that a character whose unit is wipe out counts as leaving that unit. You leave units in the movement phase only it seems, not halfway through a shooting phase.

The everliving model (IC or regular character) attached to a unit must attempt to stand back up within 2 inches of said unit. If his unit is dead, then he can not make coherency with them, and since he cant be placed in coherency, he stays dead. Seems simple enough to me!

The IC hasn't left the unit. The unit no longer exists, therefor the IC is not attached to the unit. There is nothing to get in unit coherency with. Option 1) of the OP: the IC gets a chance to get back up and wonder where his unit went.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:The IC hasn't left the unit. The unit no longer exists, therefor the IC is not attached to the unit. There is nothing to get in unit coherency with. Option 1) of the OP: the IC gets a chance to get back up and wonder where his unit went.

'If the model had joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, and the roll was passed, it must be returned to play, with a single Wound, in coherency with that unit as explained in Reanimation Protocols....
...If the returning model cannot be placed, for whatever reason, it is lost and does not return...'
Codex: Necrons page 29, second paragraph under 'Ever-Living'.
The only reason, I can think of, that the unit Royal Court was given the rule 'Ever-Living', is if that model is the only model left in the unit, in the phase it is removed as a casualty. Otherwise, if it only had Reanimation Protocol, it would just be removed with no chance to return. Because the unit would of been wiped.

TheGreatAvatar: Dont forget that for Everliving it says "If he was joined to a unit when removed as a casualty."

If its the enemies shooting phase, and he was joined to a unit at the start of the enemies shooting phase, and he counts as a part of that unit until he leaves the joined unit in his next movement phase, even if they all die and cease to be a unit, the fact is the knocked down everliving character was still joined to a unit when he was removed as a casualty.

Or, in other words... if you have a 2 man unit with an attached character, and you kill the 2 man unit in your shooting phase, you agree the character that was attached has to make a morale check for losing 25% right? Despite the 2 man unit dying and leaving the character by himself, the character still counted as a part of that unit, and at the end of the phase that character will need to make a break check for losing 25% casualties in a phase.

DevianID wrote:TheGreatAvatar: Dont forget that for Everliving it says "If he was joined to a unit when removed as a casualty."

If its the enemies shooting phase, and he was joined to a unit at the start of the enemies shooting phase, and he counts as a part of that unit until he leaves the joined unit in his next movement phase, even if they all die and cease to be a unit, the fact is the knocked down everliving character was still joined to a unit when he was removed as a casualty.

The rest of the unit no longer exists therefor he isn't part of ANY unit besides his own.

Or, in other words... if you have a 2 man unit with an attached character, and you kill the 2 man unit in your shooting phase, you agree the character that was attached has to make a morale check for losing 25% right? Despite the 2 man unit dying and leaving the character by himself, the character still counted as a part of that unit, and at the end of the phase that character will need to make a break check for losing 25% casualties in a phase.

The unit still takes the morality test. The IC is still part of the unit that was shot at. However, the IC is no longer attached to the 2 man unit. If the 2 man unit had Slow and Purposeful and the IC did not, are you suggesting the IC must move as Slow and Purposeful in the Assault phase?

Just want to throw this in here: In this month's WD battle report (yes I know bad source but hear me out), this situation occurs to the Necron team. Ward himself then states that the puprose of the rule is so that the Lord can get up when his unit is wiped out. Coming from the writer of the book, I'd say that is a pretty clear indication of RAI and how it will be FAQed if they ever do so. The writing in the book may be debatable, but in this case the author's intent is not.

Not arguing RAI at all here... It's fairly obvious what its SUPPOSED to do. The problem is it's not worded properly

Dave-c wrote:

Dynamix wrote:Agree with Fox , unit gone - no come back for the Ever-living model .

If it wasnt in a unit , then it gets the chance to come back

EL gives the model the chance to come back independently as long as it wasnt part of a wiped out unit

Model with RP needs a non-dead model from the unit to reform on , so the character needs a slightly different rule from RP as it can operate independently if it so chooses

Completely disagree, the lord has it, the warriors don't, the lord gets it, the warriors dont. Simple, and accurate. RAW, there should not be any confusion here!

At least we agree there shouldnt be any confusion .

+1 vote for 3. The Lord is part of the squad. Although I can see it being ruled as 1.

I agree, it is clearly meant that the character is able to get back up even after his unit was wiped out, the fact that Ward even says this is the intent in white dwarf (which has been used to publish offical rules again now) should put any argument to rest.

if anyone tried to argue that ever living models could not get back up when their unit was wiped out, I'd probably just shake the guys hand and pack up my toy models since he obviously isn't interested in actually playing the game, and move on to a different opponent.

Hopefully this gets FAQ'ed soon tho, putting any argument to rest.

This however makes me wonder why you would ever take 5 lychguard with warscythes over 5 lords with warscythes, considering the lord unit can be wiped out and get back up of its own accord, and only costs 15 pts more...

Roleplayer, anyone who scoops because they cant have a rule that is vague play any way but there way is a jerk in my area. Give and take much?

And no one seems to see that if he died when joined, even if the unit later dies, the everliving still died when joined. Just cause they are no longer around doesnt change the everlivings circumstances of death.

And to thegreatavatar

The unit still takes the moral test. The IC is still part of the unit that was shot at. However, the IC is no longer attached to the 2 man unit. If the 2 man unit had Slow and Purposeful and the IC did not, are you suggesting the IC must move as Slow and Purposeful in the Assault phase?

Your logic here supports that the everliving stays down. As for slow and purposeful, units move at the speed of the slowest member. If a unit is reduced to 1 model, and that model doesnt have slow and purposeful, its not slowef.

But here is yet another bit of proof for my side. A 2 man necron warrior unit with attached overlord is shot by a terminator units cyclone missile, killing the 2 warriors. Even though the warrior unit is now gone, the overlord still needs a morale, and the terminators, who can only charge the unit they shot at (necron warriors), can still charge the overlord in the next assault phase, despite the warriors dying.

Well, then the write of the codex played his own rule wrong, which I find pretty hard to believe.

We'll just wait for a FAQ, there is no way to come to an agreement, the rule is simply too vague.

The actual text from the battle report for anyone who doesn't have the mag is:

"...a bout of concentrated fire rom the Space Marines facing West but also supplemented by Vyper fire and even the Wailing Doom of the Avatar, gradually rid the battlefield of the Lychguard and even the Stormlord. But you don't kill the Phaeron of the Sautekh Dynasty that easily. Like all Necron characters, Imotekh has the Ever-living special rule, allowing him to self-repair even when the rest of his unit has been utterly destroyed. And so it was that the Stormlord rose from the ashes, minus his attendant Lychguard but ready to continue the fight."