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Ok, so I have a liibby dread. It's hit by meltas and immobilized. Now here's where it gets tricky.
RAW says that an immobilized vehicle cannot move. RAW also says that "Wings of Sanguinus lets the librarian move as though he had a jetpack". I get the implication is that the jetpack move is if he would move, but according to RAW, Wings of Sanguinus Lets him move as though he had a jetpack. So technically couldn't I use wings of sanguinus to keep my libby dread moving even after it was immobilized? from a fluff standpoint its the psychic power that is moving him (like that slaneesh whip that lets you move enemy models) rather than him moving under his own power.

You have one rule that lets him move.
You have another rule that forbids him from moving.

You need to follow the route that results in no rule being broken.

Which means no move.

I wish but in this case Immobilized overrides WoS since WoS doesn't state that an immobilized Furioso Librarian can move still.

BRB 61. Immobilized vehicle "may not move for the rest of the game".

He has the ability to move as though he were jump infantry, but unfortunately he can't use that ability because he's immobilized.

Ostrakon wrote:BRB 61. Immobilized vehicle "may not move for the rest of the game".

He has the ability to move as though he were jump infantry, but unfortunately he can't use that ability because he's immobilized.

If we're going to be TFG, I guess you could argue that, since he gets to move as if he were JI he could move anyway, as JI can't become immobilized and as such don't have rules regarding not moving when immobilized.

His method of movement has no bearing on the fact that he is forbidden from moving.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:BRB 61. Immobilized vehicle "may not move for the rest of the game".

He has the ability to move as though he were jump infantry, but unfortunately he can't use that ability because he's immobilized.

If we're going to be TFG, I guess you could argue that, since he gets to move as if he were JI he could move anyway, as JI can't become immobilized and as such don't have rules regarding not moving when immobilized.

Yes that was my thinking, that he could instead choose to move as though he were immobilized, akin to the psychic power moving him. After all if he was hit with (lash whip? i think it's called? the slaneesh one that moves him) he'd have to move, which would technically break the rule that he can't move for the rest of the game...in that case a psychic power overrules the immobilised ruling is why I thought it may/should here.

It may help us to clarify the situation if you actually quote the Codex word for word rather than giving your summary of the ability. Can the Lash move immobilized vehicles? If no, why not, other than the precedent has not been set? Is WoS a psychic power, or a mechanical upgrade to the Dreadnaught? I would say mechanical movement cannot be used because the machine is broken, but a psychic movement can be made.

As far as people being mad at others for being TFG in this game, you have no idea who he is playing against. I have been less than liberal with opponents who deserve it, and I will use any tool I feel like to do so and win within the Rules of the game.

dbsamurai wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:BRB 61. Immobilized vehicle "may not move for the rest of the game".

He has the ability to move as though he were jump infantry, but unfortunately he can't use that ability because he's immobilized.

If we're going to be TFG, I guess you could argue that, since he gets to move as if he were JI he could move anyway, as JI can't become immobilized and as such don't have rules regarding not moving when immobilized.

Yes that was my thinking, that he could instead choose to move as though he were immobilized, akin to the psychic power moving him. After all if he was hit with (lash whip? i think it's called? the slaneesh one that moves him) he'd have to move, which would technically break the rule that he can't move for the rest of the game...in that case a psychic power overrules the immobilised ruling is why I thought it may/should here.

First of all, Lash of Submission CANNOT affect a vehicle, so nothing that has been immobilized can ever be moved through this method. Secondly "moving as if a JI" does not make him a jump infantry, as stated by GW FAQ when MCs take wings they are still MCs, they simply have the ability to move in a fashion similar to another type of unit. That being said, a dreadnought remains a walker at all times so once he is immobilized he cannot make any more moves regardless of what types of movement he COULD have made earlier.

Lash of Submission if you are talking about the Slaanesh power which doesn't affect vehicles so couldn't even move a walker that isn't immobilized. Can you find where it says that an immobilized dreadnaught is allowed to move if given a second form of movement?

As for a fluffy reason why this wouldn't work, when Immobilized the Dreadnaughts the gyros and stabilizers in the legs are broken therefore movement becomes extremely dangerous, so if you wanted to argue that the Dread can move via WoS then I can equally argue that after each move no matter the type of terrain you land in a Dangerous Terrain test is required.

GreyChaos wrote:
First of all, Lash of Submission CANNOT affect a vehicle, so nothing that has been immobilized can ever be moved through this method. Secondly "moving as if a JI" does not make him a jump infantry, as stated by GW FAQ when MCs take wings they are still MCs, they simply have the ability to move in a fashion similar to another type of unit. That being said, a dreadnought remains a walker at all times so once he is immobilized he cannot make any more moves regardless of what types of movement he COULD have made earlier.

Ah see I thought Lash could affect walkers. I suppose then there isn't much precedent for psychic powers. That said I still wonder if the fact that he can use a power to give him an additional movement option might let him move anyways. Since, for example, if a model has more than one option for movement it can choose to move either way, like Assault marines choosing to jump or run. Since WoS is psychic it would provide a different means of locomotion than legs in case they're disabled, hence why i think it may be an alternative. I suspect though that may be more of a fluff issue than a rules issue...

Ruleswise - not a hope. The Walker CANNOT move for the rest of the game. You are trying to make it move.

dbsamurai wrote:Since WoS is psychic it would provide a different means of locomotion than legs in case they're disabled, hence why i think it may be an alternative. I suspect though that may be more of a fluff issue than a rules issue...

If we were to use fluff to make sense of this think of it this way, when Jump Infantry land they make use of their legs and feet to soften the landing and ensure they will be ready to continue without pause, if their legs are not able to work their landing is nothing but an uncontrolled crash. If we want a modern comparison it is like Paratroops, they need to use their legs with their landing in order to not hurt themselves.

If you are concerned about the walker being Immobile then I would recommend running a Tech Marine as well.

dbsamurai wrote: That said I still wonder if the fact that he can use a power to give him an additional movement option might let him move anyways. Since, for example, if a model has more than one option for movement it can choose to move either way, like Assault marines choosing to jump or run.

Again, having multiple ways that you can choose to move doesn't over-ride a prohibition on moving at all.

To use your example, if an Assault Marine was forbidden from moving, he could neither use the jump pack nor walk.. because either option would involve moving.

Sorry by that I meant he gave himself the option to move...after all WoS is psychic so it's not a constant. A better example than assualt marine moves would be cover saves. They're not a constant option, but you can choose to move into cover. From there, even if you don't normally get an ARMOR save, you can still get a cover save. That's really my rationale, since normally he has no other option except his (now crippled) legs, he would totally be unable to move. But he can choose to use his pyschic power, and that gives him another option to move, so that even if he couldn't move normally, he'd still get the psychic move.

In a case where rules may conflict, take the option that breaks no rules or the fewest rules.

Will moving with the psychic power break a rule? Yes, you cannot move after being immobilized.

Will not moving break a rule? No.

dbsamurai wrote:A better example than assualt marine moves would be cover saves. They're not a constant option, but you can choose to move into cover. From there, even if you don't normally get an ARMOR save, you can still get a cover save.

Cover saves aren't optional though - if you're eligible for one it's always there and if it's your best save you must use it.

I wouldn't pull this myself, and would hope my opponent respects me and the game enough not to try it on. The way I see it is his legs are blown off, which will be needed to land. If you really wana extract the urine by doing this, fine, though I'd insist that you jump into base contact with your own unit and auto roll a 6 on the penetration chart.

By you, I mean my opponent, said non confrontationally

dbsamurai wrote: A better example than assualt marine moves would be cover saves. They're not a constant option, but you can choose to move into cover. From there, even if you don't normally get an ARMOR save, you can still get a cover save.

That's not the same thing at all, though.

In your example here, you have multiple ways to take a save... but if something denies you the ability to take saving throws, moving into cover won't allow you to take a save.


Being immobilised doesn't stop the vehicle from moving like a vehicle. It stops it from moving. Period. The rules make no distinction for the type of movement. If he suddenly gains the ability to move differently to how he normally moves, that doesn't change the fact that he can't currently move.