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is it just me, or has there been a trend in the latest codices where the CC units are ignored for the shooting units? It seems that as each new dex comes out, the CC units are always overpriced, or have glaring weaknesses and are not used, some examples:

IG: Ogryns, rough riders
dark eldar: grotesques
space wolves: sky claws


and now again we have crons, the CC units (praetorians and lych guard) are ridiculously expensive to the point where i dont see any one taking them.




Am i the only one seeing this?


EDIT: this post was poorly written, look down like 6 posts for a better written version of my point.

Well I kinda see the point of necron ones.

The rest of their units are so damn crappy at CC having some guys that will try and hold incoming CC units and possibly hold them off/ do damage.

Your stuck paying the premium for the non-regular codex unit.

same for ogryns to, though blobs are so much better at holding.

canadianone wrote:IG: Ogryns, rough riders
dark eldar: grotesques
space wolves: sky claws

I like how you ignored every other CC unit in the Dark Eldar and Space Wolves Codex.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

canadianone wrote:IG: Ogryns, rough riders
dark eldar: grotesques
space wolves: sky claws

I like how you ignored every other CC unit in the Dark Eldar and Space Wolves Codex.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though, the grotesques do have some useage, mostly as a horde slayer. Yes, Wracks would likely be better, but they are aren't useless.

How could you talk about Necrons without talking about Flayed Ones? They're awful. Wraiths look good on paper, and Lychguard might do alright. They're not a close combat army though.

Every army has some choices which are generally ignored, not just CC options. It's just more glaring in shooting armies like Guard where the CC options are generally very expensive and you'd be better off with more guns.

You missed all of the close combat choices in the DE codex...
There are argueably more useful DE cc choices than shooty ones.

And he ignored TWC. When I saw that I almost posted the "not sure if trolling or just stupid" pic...

I think CC units are too often held up against Orks and Eldar and Blood Angels, instead of seeing how they work within a force.

The internet is convinced SW Assault squads are stupid, my foes think otherwise... I'm not saying they're all good, just that some are taken out of context.

okay, you guys are right, sorry, i was kinda busy when i wrote this. What i SHOULD have said, is that it bugs me that in the newer codices there are so many units that are basically completely ignored and unused. Lets look at nids, when was the last time you saw a pyrovore or a shrike? what about space wolves, have you honestly ever seen bikers or sky claws? i have personally yet to see anyone with any experience play a blood angels captain, and DE, grotesques talos and chronos' seem to be for the most part, almost completely unused. It seems like GW is not doing a good enough job balancing units, and it seems like this is resulting in more and more cookie cutter lists because the army choices become more obvious. I find that the more i play, the more and more i am facing nigh identical lists because certain units are so effective it doesn't make sense NOT to spam them, and some units are so bad that there really is no way you would take them over one the aforementioned "good" units.


Sorry again for the first post, it was poorly written. This was supposed to be serious.

Its less ignored and more a byproduct of trial and error. With an always changing game comes always changing units, and its almost impossible to get every unit exactly perfect.

Agreed. And while Skyclaws are crap, there are plenty of combat units to make up for it in the Space Wolves Codex. I play an assault-heavy Space Wolves army with only a couple cheap Long Fangs squads, and it works for me.

Anyway, it seems like you're focusing on the weakest parts of some Codices (like Pyrovores and Shrikes), instead of noticing that they have some epic CC there as well (Trygons, Genestealers). And to be fair, Pyrovores are shooting units.

Guess we will have to wait for 6th edition to see fi there is a reason why these units are over priced. Maybe once 6th edition comes out these units will be used alot so hence why they cost more.

yeah, again as i was trying to amend iny m second post, i should not have brought shooting vs CC into this, it should have been solely about how i find it frustrating about the number of bad units per dex. i know that you can't make all unit good, but in some of the codices i find that there are too many units that never get taken off the shelf.

Well, some of the less used units are instrumental in other builds. In a haemonculus-centric list, Chronos and Talos engines are more useful. Skyclaws/jump pack Bloodclaws and Blood Claw Bikers weren't even used in the 3rd ed codex. I never even thought about taking them in my army.

Yeah Canadianone (btw how come you have an american flag? ) like you said, Tyranids, Pyrovore, new mini, GW wants them sold but has one of the worst rules/stats ever.

Don't understand at all. Then again, the conspriacy side of me, says "this is the way to make SM/UM stronger without giving them a new codex."

Davor wrote:Then again, the conspriacy side of me, says "this is the way to make SM/UM stronger without giving them a new codex."

I think it's safer to just attribute it to bad rules writing on the part of the Pyrovore.

canadianone wrote:is it just me, or has there been a trend in the latest codices where the CC units are ignored for the shooting units? It seems that as each new dex comes out, the CC units are always overpriced, or have glaring weaknesses and are not used, some examples:

IG: Ogryns, rough riders

Ogryns have always sucked and always will suck. They sucked in 2nd edition, they sucked in 3rd edition, they sucked in 4th edition and they suck now in 5th edition. I'm pretty sure it's a GW corporate policy that's been distributed to shareholders. RR's don't suck so much as they're highly situational. They're better now than they were before, but are very limited in how they can be used, though when used as a counter-charge unit coming on from reserve to clear an enemy from your lines they're great.

dark eldar: grotesques

DE Ogryns, same rules apply. DE also have *tons* of great CC goodies.

space wolves: sky claws

Did we forget about all the combat characters, Wolf Guard, TWC, Grey Hunters, etc? SW's have tons of great CC units. And Skyclaws aren't bad either, just situational. They need to get the charge, if they do, they're golden, the WS3 isn't a huge issue, if they don't, then they're not so great.

and now again we have crons, the CC units (praetorians and lych guard) are ridiculously expensive to the point where i dont see any one taking them.

Praetorians are awful. Lychguard have some uses. However there's still C'tan shards, wraiths, flayed ones, various HQ's, etc and sheer ridiculous "we keep coming back" ability, Necrons aren't anywhere near as vulnerable to CC as they once were.

Am i the only one seeing this?

Yes, because there's a ton of great CC units in many of these books, and, at least for IG, some of them really shouldn't have great CC units.

canadianone wrote:okay, you guys are right, sorry, i was kinda busy when i wrote this. What i SHOULD have said, is that it bugs me that in the newer codices there are so many units that are basically completely ignored and unused. Lets look at nids, when was the last time you saw a pyrovore or a shrike? what about space wolves, have you honestly ever seen bikers or sky claws? i have personally yet to see anyone with any experience play a blood angels captain, and DE, grotesques talos and chronos' seem to be for the most part, almost completely unused. It seems like GW is not doing a good enough job balancing units, and it seems like this is resulting in more and more cookie cutter lists because the army choices become more obvious. I find that the more i play, the more and more i am facing nigh identical lists because certain units are so effective it doesn't make sense NOT to spam them, and some units are so bad that there really is no way you would take them over one the aforementioned "good" units.


Sorry again for the first post, it was poorly written. This was supposed to be serious.

Old Codices are like that too. In fact, they are more like that. Let's take Codex: Tau, for example. When is the last time you saw Vespid Stingwings, Sniper Drones, Gun Drone squadrons, Stealth suits, or Skyrays? To make matters worse, old Codices have fewer units, so the unusable ones hurt the army list more as a whole. New Codices have many more units than old ones (which is a good thing), and this leads to them sometimes having concepts that don't see lots of all-comers use.

canadianone wrote:Lets look at nids, when was the last time you saw a pyrovore or a shrike?

Pyrovores: Because the rest of the army is already great at killing infantry. It competes for the only decent anti-tank slot in the entire codex. It's an overprice heavy flamer.....whoop-dee-do.

Shirkes: Essentially no armor, expensive, is ID'd by S8, and bolter fire or better rips them to shreds.

what about space wolves, have you honestly ever seen bikers or sky claws?

Headstrong makes them very unreliable and they are very one-dimensional to begin with. Not to mention pricey for what they do.

i have personally yet to see anyone with any experience play a blood angels captain, and DE, grotesques talos and chronos' seem to be for the most part, almost completely unused.

Blood Angel Captain just don't do much for the army. They're already good at CC so a librarian or something else that can make them more survivable is just more appealing.

Grotesques: Expensive and unreliable. They just don't add much to the army.

Talos: Slow and only 3 wounds. T7 is nice, but it take them FOREVER to get into CC. I've played against them several times and they've never done a thing (I think they might have killed a few guardsmen).

It seems like GW is not doing a good enough job balancing units, and it seems like this is resulting in more and more cookie cutter lists because the army choices become more obvious.

Agreed, this is the crux of the problem.

Fetterkey wrote:
Old Codices are like that too. In fact, they are more like that. Let's take Codex: Tau, for example. When is the last time you saw Vespid Stingwings, Sniper Drones, Gun Drone squadrons, Stealth suits, or Skyrays? To make matters worse, old Codices have fewer units, so the unusable ones hurt the army list more as a whole. New Codices have many more units than old ones (which is a good thing), and this leads to them sometimes having concepts that don't see lots of all-comers use.

So sorry but I run heavy stealth suits. and gun drones. Because gun drones are a much better bubble wrap than kroot (not cheaper no but TL guns which are stronger are better for shooting and higher armor save means fewer die from shooting and flamers. plus theyre jetpack so they can effectively move to protect my firewarriors) Stealth suits are amazing, so much better than pathfinders, because they can fire markerlights every turn. yea they're also at a premium but that ability to fire your markerlights no matter what is so much better than having to take two turns to move and shoot. plus a 3 up save and a stealth field means that they're a lot better protected than sticking a stagnant unit in cover and hoping your opponent doesn't eat them. Our codex has a LOT of weaknesses yea but saying gun drones, stealth suits, or even snipers are a disadvantage is not so much. I will however lament Kroot, Stingwings (why the hell would you gear them up like space wolves but make them gakky at assualt GW?) and skyrays (who needs seeker missiles so bad on ONE TARGET? especially for that many points). I can't help but feel part of this is an attempt to quell notions from previous codecies combined with the , desire to sell more models and streamline the game. That doesn't mean that GW doesn't strike out from this entire thought process (yea, the pyrovore is a new model that serves NO purpose), but you see it in other parts of the codex.
For example, the nerf on Carnifexes could be seen as an answer to the frequent Nidzilla lists, an attempt to get away from such a "cookie cutter" list and to insert fresh new ideas while selling new models...but in trying to weaken the nidzilla they open up new pathways for cookie cutters.
Really the whole notion of a cookie cutter list is purely born out of competition. I mean, I know plenty of people who run nilla marines with like, a scout termie combo army, or run a 'fex heavy nid list STILL. Cookie cutter lists are typically people who want to win I find, not the people who play for the fun of competing, of bashing heads and seeing who wins. instead they end up trying to min max their armies so that they have the best chance to crush anyone they meet. And while yes it can suck to always lose, if you had an awesome game it really doesn't matter. off the soapbox now

tl;dr stealthies and gun drones don't suck, the sucky CC is probably due to a failed attempt to balance and sell units, cookie cutters are for die hard winners