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Basically, attempting to build an MEQ-focused guard list from an old bunch of models. I'm thinking that all expansion will be in the form of mobility (chimeras, DS stormtroopers) or Armour (demolisher, eradicator) though...

HQ
CCS - Lascannon Plasma gun x 2 (95)

Troops
1st platoon
PCS - Boltpistol, Flamers x 3 (47)
Squad 1 - Power weapon, Boltpistol, grenade launcher, Missile Launcher (82)
Squad 2 - Power weapon, Boltpistol, grenade launcher, Missile Launcher (82)
Commisar - Power weapon, Boltpistol (47)
Squad 3 - Grenade launcher, Missile launcher (75)
Veterans - Meltaguns x 3, Chimera w/ Heavy Stubber (165)

Heavy support
Love bug (Battle cannon russ) - Plasma cannon sponsons, Lascannon (205)

Basically, I've only played up against space wolves so far. The First two squads are always blobbed for objective contesting, the third acts as a reserve, and the HQ pulls fire support, threatening deep striking termies. tank runs general support and the vets are there for breaching objectives.

I'm worried all the kills seem to come from the Russ...

50 guard and two tanks on the table aren't a bad start, especially at the points level, however I think you won't be coming up against much strong armor so I'd perhaps put the launchers down to autocannons for the anti-terminator aspect (and the extra shot) and maybe drop the commisar and BP/PW from your two squads, plasma's and flamers from your Command units and the stubber (putting your three squads down to 65 points, CCS to 70, PCS with another Autocannon to 40 leaving you with 135 points)

With that 135 points I'd get another Chimera and a Conscript platoon.

Giving you a proper tarpit while you distribute firepower with four autocannons and your lascannon (not to mention whatever trouble you want to do with your Russ), the heavy bolters or flamers on your Chimeras can deal damage to units and you have the Vets to die up light units and then a real solid firebase, not to mention 65 scoring models in such a small game.

Might consider heavy bolters instead of missle launchers as they give you more chances to hit at bs3. Is your local game heavy into vechs? If not the missle launchers are probably wasted points. You might* (big might) even consider pulling the heavy weapons out of your line squads and creating a hb hw squad if your oppents don't deep strike.

If you expect to play against mechanized ig then autocannons would be a good choice in your line squads.

However if it almost always space marine equivalent then math hammer tells us hb work better do to their extra shot.

Hmmm... interesting idea, but i simply don't have the troops for an extra conscript squad. But, I also note 135 points is exactly how much a Medusa costs. Giiven the relative lack of long range Anti-Armour i would be facing at this level that might be interesting.



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I earlier had all heavy weapons in separate HW teams, but I cannot see how that is cost effective - they cost sixty points base! I need more warm bodies than that,,,

Urm your ccs is 100p, but like these two said, drop your heavy weapons (apart from the commands) down to autocannons, and drop the stubber off the tank, that should bring you too 25p i think , drop the plasma sponson on the russ, your going to be moving so your not going to be able to fire anyways, that should give you 40 more p, so now you got 65p now you could go get some camo-netting for the ccs so they can now not die in cover. then you 45p left soo maybe get meltas on the 3blob as grendea do nothing, that brings it too 30p , you said you need long range fire support , you could drop the russ and get two hydras with camo netting and then you got 5p left.

I'm seeing "drop down" to autocannons as the most consistent advice here. Also, noticeably, much hate towards the Stubber.

I actually have two chimera hulls without anything on top (i.e. they where from the basilisk set but sans basilisk sprue). Wondering if converting up hydras or manticores is best bet... Any ideas on how to do either?


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Also, Why are the plasma guns not worth it?

Luke said Plasma Sponsons. It is because of the Lumbering Behemoth rule of being able to move 6" and fire one other weapon and the turret weapon. To fire all of your guns, you can't move... the general rule is a LRBT that doesn't move is a dead LRBT. If your moving and fire the lascannon, your wasting the points on the sponsons. If your firing a single sponson, your wasting the points of the lascannon. Since the LRBT is pretty much a strictly anti-infantry vehicle (besides the Vanq, which is so specialized to make it poor against anything else than mech and the BS 3 kills it), your almost better off leaving it as a standard LRBT with a hull HB.

Conscripts blow, I consider a lone squad to be a poor suggestion and a waste of points. Either you go full bore into Conscripts (Chenkov and 'Send in the Next Wave!') or you don't do it. 20 Lasguns at BS 2 and a poor, poor leadership really do nothing for you when a AC HWS costs you 75pts.

Heavy bolters are also a sub-par suggestion. If the reason to suggest it is for power armor due to the extra shot for 10pts a pop, your losing the versitility of a Str 7 AC that is the same cost, at a longer range, against more things. I do use HBs, but you have to understand their role as strictly anti-infantry weapons. Your list lacks consistant long range AT and ACs can help you there.

Grenade launchers are also sub-par weapons, but they do have their use. If the assault and the 36" range was on something actually useful, it might rival melta guns as the weapon of choice. But alas, Str 3 frag is a joke, so Str 6 krak is the only option, and that still allows power armor saves. If they gave it the actual missile launcher rocket stats, even for frag, I might be more forgiving.

I personally use melta guns or flamers on BS 3 troops and Melta guns or plasma guns for BS 4 troops. My feeling is for 10pts, even on a BS 3 guy, that gives him the best chance to hurt nearly any unit in the game (besides things like the Eldar Avatar) and is also incredibilly effective against anything with a AV value, even at 12" for anything AV 12 or less. This really gives the troops the biggest bang for the points spent.

Missile Launchers, for 5pts more than a AC really end up firing at the same targets. You can't hurt AV 14, so you end up firing on AV 12 or less vehicles. You figure troop spread for the frag and hitting 3 and actually killing 1.5 is nearly the same as the two shots from the AC into the same infantry. The big kicker is the 2nd shot to actually have a 75% chance to hit once with that BS 3 makes it the best HW for troops like that. Only real saving grace for HWSs of ACs is the 6 shots pumping out and Orders like 'Bring it Down!' to make every shot twin linked against MCs and vehicles.

The stubber is actually fine, as it is a defensive weapon and can fire every turn. The reason people should be hitting you on it is that it is 10pts. That is a melta gun or can upgrade 2 GLs to melta guns. Same thing goes with the bolt pistols. that is another 4pts (actually 5pts in the end) that could be a special weapon upgrade or even a melta bomb.

Speaking on melta bombs, every sergeant in a blob should have one. You get into CC with a walker, your blob is done because your Str 3 power weapons are not going to even hurt a AV 10 Scout Sentinel. Weather the Dread/walker can kill your blob by the time the game is over is a moot point, your blob is taken out of the game. Sure, you get 1 attack and you only hit on a 6, but a snowball's chance in hell is better then none. And for 5pts a PIS, your sorta being silly for not doing it.

As for something like a MC, say a Eldar Wraithlord at T 8... your only chance is to shoot it, hopefully with 'Bring it Down!'. If it gets into CC with any of your units, your done. I repeat, shoot MCs at range, do not get in CC with them.

Leave the power weapons and the Commissar in the blob, upgrade the GLs to Melta guns and down grade the expensive ML to a AC to make your blob more effective in combat. Remember the melta bombs and your PISs should work out to being 5pts more expensive then what they are now.

The beauty of a HWS is this... it is a troop choice so counts as scoring. You can leave one or two back with your CCS to give you long range AT and fire support. You can then march up the blob with your vehicles.

With my advice above, I sorta see your list looking like thus...

CCS - 100pts
LC, 2x Plasma guns

PCS - 50pts
4x Flamers

PIS - 120pts (blob 1)
Commissar, 2x PWs, Melta gun, Melta bomb

PIS - 75pts (blob 1)
PW, Melta gun, Melta bomb

HWS - 75pts
3x ACs

HWS - 75pts
3x ACs

Vets - 155pts
3x Melta guns, Chimera with hull HF

LRBT - 150pts

800pts

Use your HWSs and CCS to camp your rear objective (hopefully in cover for a base 4+ cover save). Issue 'Bring it Down!' to the CCS and a HWS (or to both HWSs, you get 2 Orders) to take down transports or bigger vehicles. Have your blob attack to engage enemy infantry, using your PCS to support it and burn out weak cover save based foes (Scouts, rangers and the like). Have the PCS issue 'Move!x3' to the blob to advance it up asap in round 1 and maybe even 2. Use the blob to support the Vets and the LRBT, but also use them to give your blob some cover from flanking shots.

If anything, I hope this gives you some ideas. Good luck and have fun.

Math hammer actually indicates that overtime frag grenades are more effective against space marine equivalent than krak. One turn yes krak is better but over a game you will inflict more wounds with frag.

I like that list BlkTom that what i was trying to get around to bbut had to go out. Personally i would swap the russ for a pair of hydras, as have 1chimera and 1 russ well that wont last long At all, but with three vechiles there is more threat and your got more shots now. but just my input.

Majsharan wrote:Math hammer actually indicates that overtime frag grenades are more effective against space marine equivalent than krak. One turn yes krak is better but over a game you will inflict more wounds with frag.

I kinda doubt it, the Str 3 kills it as a effective weapon. You have to figure a 2" spread of troops, so your hitting 2.5 guys a shot. With using marines as the bench mark of this game (because they /are/ the benchmark of this game... if you can't hurt marines you might as well get a better weapon), you have to roll a 5-6 to wound. That is 1 out of 3, so if you hit 3 guys, one /should/ be wounded. Then they have to roll a 3+ to save. That right there is the same as the krak because the krak doesn't scatter. Str 6 means if you do hit, you will wound (unless you roll a 1), but AP 4 means power armor has the same save.

Krak and frag are the same if they hit, but frag is worse due to the replacing the 50% hit roll with a scatter roll. Average roll on 2d6 is 7", meaning you will average 4" off your target point 50% of the time in a random direction.

So i certainly need more AC. Simple enough. I like the idea of putting those extra points into melta guns...

I still don't understand the russ issue. Derp strike is not an issue till turn 3, and movement does not effect shooting. I don't see much chance of assault until turn 3 - so why not bunker up?

Er... drop pods come in turn 1 and DSing starts at turn 2. Stern guard can be combat squaded in a drop pod (and they get to choose what drop pods come in first). Van guard vets can assault as soon as they come in. Then you have to worry about infiltrators that can start up 18" away.

Really, the only turn you do not have to worry about assault is turn 1, but past that, game on.

DakkaDakka wrote:

I don't have a link but i have read several posts confirming through math i can't do that if you hit on average 2.5 marines a turn you end up inflicting something like .8 wounds a turn but if you use krak you end up inflicting something like .5 or .7.

but yeah agaisnt vechs krak all the way.

DakkaDakka wrote: