Skimmers Ramming

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**Billinator**

Heya, Dakka

I've seen this mentioned on several occasions: Ramming vehicles with skimmers.

My question at hand is this: How does the rules of moving the vehicle apply to skimmers?

E.g. Last turn, my DAVU Wave Serpent flew in to capture an objective, which had been placed out of LOS (Ruin or similar in the way)
- Next turn, a Land Raider have moved closer, and is now found to be within ramming distance of my Wave Serpent.
- Can i then unload the Dire Avengers (to hold the Obj.) and have the WS ram the LR at whatever distance it's now found to be within, even though there's not a direct path (the cover is blocking the path) to the LR?

In other words: being a skimmer, it can ignore terrain when moving, and thereby also when ramming?

**MrMerlin**

my guess would be YES, because somewhere it says that skimmers move over terrain, ignoring it.

**SagesStone**

Yep, it moves over cover so it just zooms at the LR. Probably blowing up against the side of it though.

**Billinator**

n0t_u wrote:Yep, it moves over cover so it just zooms at the LR. Probably blowing up against the side of it though.

Yeah, well, that's the thing. If you can create enough momentum, you might just be able to gain the upper hand:
- At flatout, you can generate as much as a s10 hit. Still, this leaves a 1/3 chance of getting a glancing hit - or better.
- As the LR is armor 14 and a tank, the LR's AP would be s5 + 1D6 (AP 6-11).
- Finally, as the ramming vehicle counts the "counter-hit" towards it's front wouldn't be sufficient to damage the Wave Serpent.

A question, though, is this: Does the LR's movement in it's previous turn affect the "counter-ram"-hit?
- If yes, then the flatout would provide a cover-save. With a Farseer, this could become a 4+ with a re-roll.

**DarknessEternal**

Billinator wrote:
- Finally, as the ramming vehicle counts the "counter-hit" towards it's front wouldn't be sufficient to damage the Wave Serpent.

The Wave Serpent's force field only works against ranged attacks.

**Jidmah**

1) You add the ramming vehicles speed to the ramming strength. So the landraider will almost certainly give your serpent at least an evenly strong hit back.
2) Skimmer only count as obscured when fired at(BRB pg. 71). So no cover save due to moving flat-out against ramming ever.

Bottom line, if you hit the LR at S10, it will hit you at S10, too. There is no guarantee that the landraider will even be scratched, as it doesn't care about 3 out of 6 damage results.

**Brother Bartius**

The only bummer in this is that after a unit disembarks from a fast vehicle the vehicle can only move at combat speed, not flat out.

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

Brother Bartius wrote:The only bummer in this is that after a unit disembarks from a fast vehicle the vehicle can only move at combat speed, not flat out.

Actually it can move at cruising speed Fast Skimmer that'd be up to 12".

**Jidmah**

Cruising speed would be 12" for any non-walker vehicle.

**SagesStone**

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Brother Bartius wrote:The only bummer in this is that after a unit disembarks from a fast vehicle the vehicle can only move at combat speed, not flat out.

Actually it can move at cruising speed Fast Skimmer that'd be up to 12".

Which equates to a S7 attack on the LR (That's if I'm remembering the ram correctly (4 for distance, +2 for 12 armour and +1 for being a tank)), S9 back. Which results in the LR being the only thing doing damage.

**Billinator**

Once again, you have failed me, brain!

The whole Ramming idea was taken from a guide i was reading the other day (link: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/402275.page)
- The last spoiler explains this:

Ok. So what happens if you bring this list,

[80] Farseer- Doom
[170] 5 Dire Avengers : Wave Serpent- tl shuri cannon, extra cannon
[170] 5 Dire Avengers : Wave Serpent- tl shuri cannon, extra cannon
[40] War Walker- 2 shuri cannon
[40] War Walker- 2 shuri cannon

and your opponent brings this list
Librarian
5 Scouts
5 Scouts
Land Raider Something

At first glance it seems hopeless. You've got 8 cannons, but none of them are capable of scratching the paint of a Land Raider! Never fear. You still actually have the tools to deal with and defeat that list. Remember that you can generate up to 2 s10 hits from rams, and the destruction of that Raider = the destruction of your opponent's list. Of course you still have only about a 20% chance of destroying the Land Raider, but you can do it. And remember your energy field will reduce the returning ram to s8, so the impact may not even destroy your Wave Serpent- and you'll have a 4+ cover save from flat out, so you can potentially smash into the land raider, pull back and smash into it again. Just make sure you pile your troops out and sit them on an objective and cover when you use your Wave Serpents as battering rams. You can also get a free Kill point by slaughtering his not mounted scout squad with War Walker fire.

It brought alot of confusion. But i guess it all comes down to the Ramming-rule as being "a special type of tank shock" and NOT a ranged attack (even though one might say the vehicle itself counts as the ammunition!).
Oh, this is saddening!

**Brother Bartius**

Yeah guys your right. apologies for the confusion.

**MFletch**

Does anyone crash Sammael into tanks or is the wrong thread?

**sphynx**

MFletch wrote:Does anyone crash Sammael into tanks or is the wrong thread?

Only tanks can ram buddy.

**Jidmah**

And the FW Ork Bikerboss called Zardsnark The Rippa

**Alerian**

The best tanks to ram with for Eldar are holo-field protected tanks, as they allow you to take the lower of 2 rolls on the chart from the return hit againt your tank. Even w/o holo-fields it is a standard tactic for all Fire Prisms to employ, once they lose the Prism cannon.

24" ramming speeds (and possible tank shocks along the way)that ignore terrain can ruin an opponent's day...especially if your tank has a holo-field on it to survive the return hit

**SagesStone**

Best are actually the Raider, as they still get their save but need to buy upgrades to be able to ram. Other than that they're essentially missiles with seats. Both have the potential to move up to 36" for the ram as well.

**MrMerlin**

Jidmah wrote:1) You add the ramming vehicles speed to the ramming strength. So the landraider will almost certainly give your serpent at least an evenly strong hit back.
2) Skimmer only count as obscured when fired at(BRB pg. 71). So no cover save due to moving flat-out against ramming ever.

Bottom line, if you hit the LR at S10, it will hit you at S10, too. There is no guarantee that the landraider will even be scratched, as it doesn't care about 3 out of 6 damage results.

Serpents have energy shields wich turn every hit over 10 into 8

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So chances of getting wrecked are equal (s10 on av14 needs 5 to pen, as does s8 on av12)

**Flavius Infernus**

MrMerlin wrote:
Jidmah wrote:1) You add the ramming vehicles speed to the ramming strength. So the landraider will almost certainly give your serpent at least an evenly strong hit back.
2) Skimmer only count as obscured when fired at(BRB pg. 71). So no cover save due to moving flat-out against ramming ever.

Bottom line, if you hit the LR at S10, it will hit you at S10, too. There is no guarantee that the landraider will even be scratched, as it doesn't care about 3 out of 6 damage results.

Serpents have energy shields wich turn every hit over 10 into 8

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So chances of getting wrecked are equal (s10 on av14 needs 5 to pen, as does s8 on av12)

The Eldar Codex specifies that the energy field only works against ranged attacks. I don't think ramming would fit any plausible definition of a ranged attack.

**MrMerlin**

Flavius Infernus wrote:
MrMerlin wrote:
Jidmah wrote:1) You add the ramming vehicles speed to the ramming strength. So the landraider will almost certainly give your serpent at least an evenly strong hit back.
2) Skimmer only count as obscured when fired at(BRB pg. 71). So no cover save due to moving flat-out against ramming ever.

Bottom line, if you hit the LR at S10, it will hit you at S10, too. There is no guarantee that the landraider will even be scratched, as it doesn't care about 3 out of 6 damage results.

Serpents have energy shields wich turn every hit over 10 into 8

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So chances of getting wrecked are equal (s10 on av14 needs 5 to pen, as does s8 on av12)

The Eldar Codex specifies that the energy field only works against ranged attacks. I don't think ramming would fit any plausible definition of a ranged attack.

Doesnt the eldar dex say something like "attacs from the rear and from cc ar unaffected"?

**Flavius Infernus**

Yes, it says that in the last sentence of the description.

But I'm talking about the first sentence where it says, "Any ranged attack against a Wave Serpent..." (emphasis added). Both the reducing str to 8 part and the only 1d6 part of the rule specify ranged attacks.

It was one of the first things I checked when the 5th edition ramming rules came out. Holofields work for ramming, but not energy fields.