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Hey all!
So I was thinking just for a change, I might try to include a pair or trio of Zzap Guns in an Ork list I was considering plugging them into a 500pt-750pt game along with a Warboss or Big Mek, around 40 odd Boyz, a Deff Dread and/or some Kans, and maybe a Kopta or two if points allow.

What do ya think? Might be some decent anti-tank for the points size of the game.

Thanks!
T-

You'll get a lot of people piling in to tell you how uncompetitive they are in a min..

They aren't reliable anti tank, but they CAN behave amazingly if the dice are with you. Kannon are more reliable but less fun

Use them if you like them. I'm a big big fan of mek-made crazyness, so ZZapp guns and SAG's are awesome to me

I run 2 in 500pt / 600pt games and they have performed reasonably well.

I take 2 extra Grots just incase.

I normally seem to average a 7/8 roll on the 2D6 so not bad.

Actually, they are still a terrible gun if you get no bad rolls at all. There is no reason to ever field them over kannons or even Kanz with KMB, if you need terminators dead that bad.

People defending Zzapguns will usually tell you to shoot tanks or terminators with them. Zzap gunz are really terribe at anti-tank. Save for that 2% chance of penetrating a landraider they are always worse than a kannon, but cost more points. As for terminators, their storm shields, the regular 5++ save and cover make killing even a single terminator per turn a gamble, if you can shoot them at all. Orks have dozens of units which can kill terminators more reliably than Zzap gunz, starting with ork boyz and ending with flash gits. Not to mention that rolling less than S8 will give you a hard time against paladins.

Unlike the SAG, Flash Gits, Warpheads or Lootaz, the Zzap Gun will never do something great. It will either do what it is supposed to do, or under-perform. No awesome shot of doom, not surprising volumes of fire or armor shredding, nothing. All you will ever have with zzap guns is an ok result or a bad one. And the ok result is still worse than comparable weapons.

So, if you consider rolling 2d6 for strength as much"fun"as Ascalam does, go ahead and field them. But if you care about winning at all, the zzap gun is the single model in the codex that should never see play.

It's really both a waste of money and points to ever field them.

voila

It helps if you ditch the idea that winning is the most important thing when playing orks, and just enjoy the playing (unless winning is the ONLY thing that matters to you )

If i'm going to a tournament, i'll take Kannon or similar, as winning is a good part of the point of a tournament, and the focus is more on results from the other player's POV.

If you are playing for the fun of hanging out with your friends and having a blast, and you and your friends get off on the wacky randomness of orks, then by all means take them

ZZapp guns also shake anything they damage, which can be good for suppression of low armour artillery hulls \, like basilisks and so on

It also helps if you think of them as being about S 7-8, not being S 10 guns that 'fail' most of the time If it rolls a 9 or 10 S hit is is an awesome shot of doom for a gun that cheap, manned by grots

If you like them, field them If all you care about is winning then there are indeed bettter, but less definitively orky, options

Jidmah wrote:
People defending Zzapguns will usually tell you to shoot tanks or terminators with them. Zzap gunz are really terribe at anti-tank. Save for that 2% chance of penetrating a landraider they are always worse than a kannon, but cost more points.

Jidmah is totally correct here.

Awhile back, I was curious as to just exactly how BAD Zzap Guns really were. So I went into Excel and charted the probability curve of a Zzap Gun and a Kannon and how they compare to each other. I wish I'd saved my calculations and made them pretty so I could show you. I was actually pretty surprised by the results.

Zzap Guns are SO much worse than Kannons. The only exception is getting a penetrating hit on an AV 14 vehicle, which is mathematically impossible for the Kannon.

When I say worse, I mean significantly worse. Depending on the AV value of the target, a Zzap gun was anywhere from about 35% - 20% LESS LIKELY to do anything than a basic S8 Kannon / Rokkit shot. When firing at that Land Raider, even when firing a battery of 3 of them, you have less than a 10% chance of getting 1 penetrating hit.

Never take Zzap Guns. Just like Jidmah said, they are ALWAYS worse than the Kannon except for the extremely low chance they have of penetrating a land raider.

If you really need to kill Terminators, break out the Kustom Mega Blastas, Shokk Attack Gun, or Flash Gitz.

Keep in mind, the average roll on 2d6 is 7. Which means the average roll for a Zzap gun will place its strength below that of a kannon, but you're paying more points for it.

Food for though.

IMO they're the cheaper less reliable option.

They auto hit which is Equivalent to two Kannons and they've got a average power less than them. Kannons are 10P more for a better Strength.

InquisitorVaron wrote:IMO they're the cheaper less reliable option.

They auto hit which is Equivalent to two Kannons and they've got a average power less than them. Kannons are 10P more for a better Strength.

what codex are you reading mate?

They no longer autohit. The BRB is incorrect on that, and it has been FAQ'd. They used to.

If they did you might see them more often on the field

Everyone is correct. Out of 9 big guns 3 zzap guns just for the odd landraider or even terminator is ok but otheriwse kannons are amazing.

Peace and love,
Fletch

Ascalam wrote:voila

It helps if you ditch the idea that winning is the most important thing when playing orks, and just enjoy the playing (unless winning is the ONLY thing that matters to you )

I said if you care about winning at all. Fielding Zzap gunz is on par with fielding your boyz mobz without nobz. If you are trying hard not to win, go Zzap guns.

If you are playing for the fun of hanging out with your friends and having a blast, and you and your friends get off on the wacky randomness of orks, then by all means take them

I still don't get how rolling 2d6 for strength is fun at all. Random != fun. I'd rather save those points and field a Wierdboy or SAG instead, who are actually fun. Hell, even using the points to field a gretchin mob and doing something incredibly stupid with them is bound to be more fun. Especially if you decided to do something stupid as their goal for the game.

ZZapp guns also shake anything they damage, which can be good for suppression of low armour artillery hulls \, like basilisks and so on

First of all you have to at least glance the thing at all - which we already established will happen less often with a Zzap gun than with rokkits or kannons. Then, in case you actually rolled an immobilized, you get an additional benefit. So for less than 4% of your shots, you get an additional benefit when hitting a vehicle - which you have a 3% less chance to harm in the first place. Well, that's definitely not worth a 15 point increase per battery.

It also helps if you think of them as being about S 7-8, not being S 10 guns that 'fail' most of the time If it rolls a 9 or 10 S hit is is an awesome shot of doom for a gun that cheap, manned by grots

Actually, I think of them as being S7-8 that will fail half the time and the other half do nothing spectacular but randomly killing gretchin. While killing gretchin is awesome, I don't need to to spend 45 worth of artillery on them to do that.

If you like them, field them If all you care about is winning then there are indeed bettter, but less definitively orky, options

Imo a terrible lascannon which isn't even making a lot of noise while shooting is about as unorky as you can get.

In the next Ork Codex, I can think of 3 ways to improve Zzap Guns I'd really love to see.

Either:

A) Make them Auto-Hit, Strength of 6+D6

B) Roll to hit, Strength is 7+D3

C) Keep them how they are now, but make them about as expensive as a Big Shoota.

Different strokes for different folks, i guess

I'll agree that wierdboyz and SAG are also fun, possibly moreso than ZZapps

The zzapp gun projects a lightning bolt. Who said it was silent? Lightning has a tendency to be loud (as a side effect) ...

I guess it could be that i have a liking for all things mad scientistish I also run a coven DE list, which isn't the most competitive build out there, but which is more fun to me than Venomspam with Blasterborn..

Murrdox wrote:In the next Ork Codex, I can think of 3 ways to improve Zzap Guns I'd really love to see.

Either:

A) Make them Auto-Hit, Strength of 6+D6

B) Roll to hit, Strength is 7+D3

C) Keep them how they are now, but make them about as expensive as a Big Shoota.

Actually Rending would pretty much be enough. Two chances of rolling a six would make them viable anti-tank again without taking away the trademark randomness. That, or auto-shacking on hits. Still, a drop in points wouldn't hurt at all.

Ascalam wrote:Different strokes for different folks, i guess

I'll agree that wierdboyz and SAG are also fun, possibly moreso than ZZapps

The zzapp gun projects a lightning bolt. Who said it was silent? Lightning has a tendency to be loud (as a side effect) ...

I guess it could be that i have a liking for all things mad scientistish I also run a coven DE list, which isn't the most competitive build out there, but which is more fun to me than Venomspam with Blasterborn..

Isn't It thunder thats loud.

Listen, they blast terminator armor and a little less than half the time double out paladins; with ammo runts, you're hitting 75 % of the time.

My problem with them is placement and movement; in Dawn of War you won't be able to put them atop ruins, opponent can avoid them.

InquisitorVaron wrote:

Ascalam wrote:Different strokes for different folks, i guess

I'll agree that wierdboyz and SAG are also fun, possibly moreso than ZZapps

The zzapp gun projects a lightning bolt. Who said it was silent? Lightning has a tendency to be loud (as a side effect) ...

I guess it could be that i have a liking for all things mad scientistish I also run a coven DE list, which isn't the most competitive build out there, but which is more fun to me than Venomspam with Blasterborn..

Isn't It thunder thats loud.

Which is what i meant by 'as a side effect' . You can't project a massive bolt of electricity silently, because the bolt will have an attendant thunderclap if it's a near-instant zap, and a loud buzz if it's a prolongued one