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USA

http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2011/11/social-tensions-china

Beware low-flying aeroplanes
Nov 10th 2011, 6:24 by R.G.

TWO recent trends show the tensions that are growing at both the top and bottom ranks of Chinese society. The first concerns artist-cum-activist and all-round scourge of the Communist Party, Ai Weiwei. Mr Ai says ordinary Chinese people have been tucking banknotes into paper aeroplanes and flying them over his garden wall, in order to contribute to the $2.4m tax bill that Chinese authorities say he owes them. He was detained in April and held for nearly three months for what the Communist Party later said was tax evasion. Mr Ai says that the charges are politically motivated, a response to his outspoken criticism of the party. Mr Ai tells the BBC that he is overwhelmed by the gestures of support, however small, “They all have one message: we’re supporting you, we’re behind you…we know the accusations are fake.”

One Chinese supporter in the southern city of Guangzhou told the BBC he had sent a postal order [a money transfer] to Mr Ai because it was a “rare opportunity to support what I believe.” The supporter added, “I will keep my receipt of the postal order forever, because it is my first real vote.” The Chinese government, desperate to prevent such shows of support for a man it considers to be deeply subversive, has attempted to prevent the contributions. The Global Times newspaper said such donations to Mr Ai’s cause could constitute “illegal fundraising”.

This is the second time within a few weeks that ordinary Chinese people have voted with their feet (or aeroplanes) to support someone under attack by the Communist Party. The first case involves Chen Guangcheng, a blind activist being held under house arrest in the eastern province of Shandong. Mr Chen, who lost his sight as a child, became well-known between 2000 and 2005 as an outspoken supporter for the rights of the disabled in China. In 2005 however, he began to expose brutality in the local government’s enforcement of family-planning laws. He was arrested and jailed for four years. Since his release last year, dozens of hired thugs have been standing guard outside his village, preventing visitors from getting through. But in recent weeks, using their mobile phones and the internet to organise, groups of ordinary Chinese people have begun to show up at Chen’s village. Some, including one intrepid group of disabled people from Anhui province, have travelled hundreds of kilometres to demonstrate moral support for Chen’s stand. Foreign journalists and diplomats who try to visit are escorted away. Chinese visitors are often handled less politely, and many report being roughed up by the goons. None of them is allowed to reach Mr Chen.

Chinese citizens normally steer clear of any association with people who are labelled “troublemakers” by the government, for fear of being implicated themselves. So the very public support for Messrs Ai and Chen suggests that something new is emerging, on a small scale but perceptible nonetheless: a willingness to make an open stand in support of people who challenge the injustices of the system. No wonder the Communist Party is worried.

Even more worrying perhaps is what is going on at the other end of the social spectrum. The Chinese government has long relied on the anaesthetic of prosperity to keep urbanites happy and to keep them from mobilising politically. And, having seen how the movement was suppressed in Tiananmen Square in 1989, urban Chinese have been only too happy to stay clear of politics and concentrate on making money. Hundreds of millions of people have moved into the middle class. Estimates vary, but the country could now have as many as a million US dollar millionaires. But a recent survey by the Bank of China and influential publisher, the Hurun Report, has revealed what people with wealthy Chinese friends have known anecdotally for some time: that many rich Chinese people are getting on planes (low-flying or otherwise) and heading for the exit. Of the 980 people polled, each with assets of more than 10m yuan ($1.6m), over half said they were considering or have already taken steps to emigrate from China. Another survey published in April by China Merchants Bank and Bain & Company found similar results. Almost 60% of 2,600 high-net-worth individuals questioned by that survey said they were either considering emigration or had already begun the process. Among the reasons they cited most frequently are China’s bad pollution, dodgy food-safety standards, corruption and the lack of legal protections. Many also want to secure foreign educations for their children.

So, not only is discontent bubbling up from below, but it is clearly fizzing at the top as well, where confidence that China can continue on its present path seems to be decreasing. The two segments of society, so different on the face of it, are in fact two sides of the same coin. They show that China’s model for development is increasingly unable to contain the society it has created. The unspoken deal that was done between the Communist Party and the people of China after the Tiananmen protests of June 1989 and their violent suppression was that if the people stayed out of politics, they could do anything they wanted. Millions are still happy with the deal. But more and more people are not, and that deal is now starting to fray.

China has achieved amazing success economically. Its cities are booming and millions have lifted themselves out of poverty. But the fabric of China’s society is being stretched to the limit, and as expectations grow, so does the number of angry or worried people. Perhaps it can continue for some time, but sooner or later it must tear. The Chinese government could do better than merely to suppress these tensions. Political or legal reforms are desperately needed in order to resolve them, but they appear not to be on the table at all. So, while many Western analysts hyperventilate from afar about the inevitable rise of China and its dangers, closer to home the rise of China is looking much more difficult.


So the lower class is giving support to protesters, while the upper class is trying to emigrate out of the country, due to lack of regulation. A fairly big change from the country's citizens trying to stay out of politics...

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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Through the looking glass

This is a great change. China has more than a few problems, and citizens developing a backbone is a surefire way to get something done about it.

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Melissia wrote:So the lower class is giving support to protesters, while the upper class is trying to emigrate out of the country, due to lack of regulation.

I'm not even sure what this means. China is one of the most highly regulated places on earth.

They're not leaving China because of lack of regulation, they're leaving because they want to preserve their wealth for their families, and the best way to do so is outside of a corrupt communist state.

text removed by Moderation team. 
   
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USA

I think you mean Tiananmen...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
biccat wrote:I'm not even sure what this means.

[...]

They're not leaving China because of lack of regulation
You know Biccat, you could actually bother reading the article.

Here:
Melissia wrote:Another survey published in April by China Merchants Bank and Bain & Company found similar results. Almost 60% of 2,600 high-net-worth individuals questioned by that survey said they were either considering emigration or had already begun the process. Among the reasons they cited most frequently are China’s bad pollution [lack of regulation in pollution], dodgy food-safety standards [lack of regulation in food safety], corruption [lack of regulation preventing corruption] and the lack of legal protections [lack of regulation protecting them in legal courts]. Many also want to secure foreign educations for their children.

Comments in brackets are mine. Yes, Biccat, reading comprehension is important if you want to argue with me.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/11/10 13:08:06


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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My blog
 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Hawwa'





Through the looking glass

Come now, the way you finished the post it looked as though you did a TLDR section, as many people do. No need to get harsh because someone doesn't want to read a wall of text.

“Sometimes I can hear my bones straining under the weight of all the lives I'm not living.”

― Jonathan Safran Foer 
   
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USA

Necroshea wrote:Come now, the way you finished the post it looked as though you did a TLDR section, as many people do. No need to get harsh because someone doesn't want to read a wall of text.
If one doesn't want tor read, then why would one argue in the first place?

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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SE Michigan

Melissia wrote:
Necroshea wrote:Come now, the way you finished the post it looked as though you did a TLDR section, as many people do. No need to get harsh because someone doesn't want to read a wall of text.
If one doesn't want tor read, then why would one argue in the first place?

Some people love arguing....
and it was an interesting read, though I don't expect too much to change in China in the short run

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Melissia wrote:Comments in brackets are mine. Yes, Biccat, reading comprehension is important if you want to argue with me.

You added the comments about regulation. Because that's your interpretation.

China has regulations governing pollution, they're pretty similar to those that the US has, actually. All industry is on government land and all activity is performed under the oversight of Government officials. The problem is not lack of regulation, it's that the government of China doesn't care about pollution and is doing nothing to stop it. China is also unresponsive to the demands of their people because (surprise surprise) they're a Communist dictatorship.

Chinese government is corrupt because the Chinese system encourages corruption. There are so many byzantine laws and regulations that anyone who attempts to do things legitimately will be unable to compete.

The problem with China is not lack of government regulation or oversight.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/10 13:20:22


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Burtucky, Michigan

I have to agree with Melissia on that one. You cant make an argument without even bothering to read the damn thing. I think could be a good thing for their country. Sure revolutions can be a pretty disastrous thing, but maybe if we are lucky, America wont have to pay back those loans
   
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KingCracker wrote:I have to agree with Melissia on that one. You cant make an argument without even bothering to read the damn thing. I think could be a good thing for their country. Sure revolutions can be a pretty disastrous thing, but maybe if we are lucky, America wont have to pay back those loans


...I did read the story. I disagree with her assertion that the wealthy are leaving China due to "lack of regulation."

The linked article says they're leaving because of:
China’s bad pollution, dodgy food-safety standards, corruption and the lack of legal protections. Many also want to secure foreign educations for their children.

Nothing about regulation there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/10 13:26:27


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KingCracker wrote:I have to agree with Melissia on that one. You cant make an argument without even bothering to read the damn thing. I think could be a good thing for their country. Sure revolutions can be a pretty disastrous thing, but maybe if we are lucky, America wont have to pay back those loans


I ike how this thread went from zero to craptown in three posts. Can we get back to topic?

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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USA

biccat wrote:The problem is not lack of regulation,

[...]

it's that the government of China doesn't care about pollution and is doing nothing to stop it.
These two statements are mutually exclusive.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
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China is neither over nor under regulated. Some industries are INSANO-regulated and some industries are entirely deregulated.

Then some have a normal amount of rules, but the rules are awful and do nothing.
   
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Melissia wrote:These two statements are mutually exclusive.

No they're not.

I'm disappointed to learn that the reading comprehension rule only goes one way.

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USA

biccat wrote:No they're not.
Yes they are. Simply having rules doesn't mean something is regulated. One could have an industry that with extremely restrictive rules and tons of red tape, but if none of it's enforced it's effectively de-(or non-)regulated.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/10 14:00:57


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
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Tiananmen...


Thanks

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Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

China has the full whack of regulations, national and international.

However their government ignores then if it is in their interest to do so. It also imposes others unevenly and even remands respect for regulations that don't exist for people it wants to keep under the thumb.

China has effective regulations what it is lacking are effective rights.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

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Orlanth wrote:China [...] ignores then[sic; regulations] if it is in their interest to do so. It also imposes others unevenly and even remands respect for regulations that don't exist for people it wants to keep under the thumb.

China has effective regulations

Once more, two mutually exclusive statements. Unless that's your idea of "effective" regulations, in which case I don't think we'll ever agree.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/10 15:53:17


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch





Melissia wrote:Once more, two mutually exclusive statements. Unless that's your idea of "effective" regulations, in which case I don't think we'll ever agree.

Either you're not understanding the point being made or you're using a completely different definition of "regulations" than that which is commonly understood.

The problem in China isn't the law, it's the rule of law.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/10 15:59:31


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USA

biccat wrote:
Melissia wrote:Once more, two mutually exclusive statements. Unless that's your idea of "effective" regulations, in which case I don't think we'll ever agree.

Either you're not understanding the point being made or you're using a completely different definition of "regulations" than that which is commonly understood.
He was saying "effective regulation".

Patchy, inefficient, poorly enforced, irregularly enforced regulation is not effective regulation by any reasonable standard.

Surely since you believe all regulation to be ineffective in the first place, favoring complete deregulation instead (or at least that's the attitude I get from you), you'd agree that this is ineffective

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/11/10 16:01:48


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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China is a freaking mess

I used to work in Logistics, you would think that with billions of containers of goods leaving China on the daily that they would have a proper system in place, but no, it is a giant mess. I'd rather order the raw goods and make the items myself than have to deal with Chinese politricks again.


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Melissia wrote:Surely since you believe all regulation to be ineffective in the first place, favoring complete deregulation instead (or at least that's the attitude I get from you), you'd agree that this is ineffective

Depends on how you measure effectiveness.

Is it effective at reducing pollution? No, not really. US regulation is only effective because it increases the costs of polluting to a point where it's cheaper to comply with the regulations than it is to violate them. In China it's cheaper to bribe a public official to ignore your factory than it is to comply with the regulations.

Are the regulations effective at lining the pockets of the government? Certainly.

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China is heavily regulated




China is the wild west of capitalism. The laws on book are almost meaningless if you have the clout or capital required to circumvent them (which seemingly every major business does). Regulatory enforcement and corruption are the two greatest issues with the chinese economy, it's one of the least transparent markets on the planet.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/11/10 16:58:36


----------------

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United States

biccat wrote: China is also unresponsive to the demands of their people because (surprise surprise) they're a Communist dictatorship.


China isn't a dictatorship.

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Dogma is right, it's just pretty heavily censured internet and media wise

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 LoneLictor wrote:
I like to imagine the Emperor kills so many Orks that he ends up half buried beneath a pile of corpses, with only his head sticking out. A lone grot stumbles across him, and starts choking him.

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In your base, ignoring your logic.

Wait a second, Ai Weiwei was released on bail on June 22nd of this year. I think that this article needs to make certain things more clear because it gives the impression that Ai Weiwei is still under arrest.

And how can you arrest this guy?

Spoiler: Mostly naked Chinese guy.
Spoiler:


Seriously China, he makes abstract art that has political messages and uses a lot of ancient materials, stuff from the Qin and Han dynasties in order to make them. He's just recycling for the most part. Except for that one were it was a series of pictures of him dropping a Han Dynasty vase, that was just testing to see if the gravity was still working in China.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/10 18:04:00


 
   
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halonachos wrote:Wait a second, Ai Weiwei was released on bail on June 22nd of this year. I think that this article needs to make certain things more clear because it gives the impression that Ai Weiwei is still under arrest.

And how can you arrest this guy?

Spoiler: Mostly naked Chinese guy.
Spoiler:


AIEEEEEE! Release the hounds!

 Cheesecat wrote:
 purplefood wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Albatross far too often these days...

I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Okay, so the male version of "Cougar" is now officially "Albatross".
 
   
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USA

biccat wrote:Is it effective at reducing pollution? No, not really. US regulation is only effective because it increases the costs of polluting to a point where it's cheaper to comply with the regulations than it is to violate them.
In other words, it reduces pollution through making the reduction of pollution the cheaper alternative.

Isn't that the best way to do it in a capitalist society?

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
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In your base, ignoring your logic.

Albatross wrote:
halonachos wrote:Wait a second, Ai Weiwei was released on bail on June 22nd of this year. I think that this article needs to make certain things more clear because it gives the impression that Ai Weiwei is still under arrest.

And how can you arrest this guy?

Spoiler: Mostly naked Chinese guy.
Spoiler:


AIWEIWEI! Release the hounds!


Fixed.
   
 
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