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Hey guys, I am new to guard, and before I decided to dedicate myself to buying anything, I decided that I should seek help with my current list (finding out if it will survive, and what I can improve on with it).

HQ

Company Command Squad
-3 Melta guns
-Chimera with Heavy Flamer and Multilas
(135 pts.)

Troops

Veteran Squads x3
-3 Melta guns per squad
-3 Chimeras with Heavy Flamers and Multilas
(155 pts. per squad)
(465 pts. total)

Fast Attack

Vendetta Gunship
(130 pts.)

Heavy Support
Leman Russ Battle Tank x2
(150 pts. each)
(300 pts. total)

The total value is 1030 pts.

Already I can see a few problems.
A) Too many meltas, however what should I replace them with
B) I may have one Leman Russ too many, and I could drop it and sub in something like a Hydra
C) The Vendetta could be good, but at the same time it is also very vulnerable
D) No Marbo (from what I hear, he can change the tide in the game by taking out key assets that belong to the opponent).

With all those problems, it could lead to an issue of dealing with hordes of infantry.

Any ideas on what I should do with this build?

Well maybe your worried about to much melta and also your 30ps over , so the vendatta is a bit out of this list , so if you like maybe drop the vendatta and get marbo and put on of the vet squads to a vet squad with 3plasma and lascannon instead of meltas and that will put you bang on 1000p. And will have a home objective holder.

That might be a good idea, part of the reason I threw in the Vendetta was because it could act as another hard hitting tank hunter (although it's a glass cannon). But if I do drop it as you said, I could throw in Marbo.

About the plasma and lascannon, I'm not exactly too familiar with the rules, but how would movement in an APC affect the Lascannon? Would it still require the setup time, or would the setup time be negated by the fact that it's in an APC?

Sadly it does effect the lascannons fire , if your moving you cant shoot the lascannon and the plasma guns will have to rapid fire. so you dont want to move any way. just sit and the back with your russes and blast the hell out of stuff and then marbo will pop up and demo something(makes me laugh every time).

Man that kinda sucks to be honest. I was hoping it would not affect the lascannon, but then again it if that were the case then you could basically cram your Chimeras full of Heavy Weapons Teams and drive around blasting anything and everything (which would be pretty unbalanced.....)

Other than that I will keep these suggestions in mind, still a little unsure about plasma though (never like the Gets Hot! part of it), Marbo though is something I do want to squeeze in.

Oh and I forgot to ask, would it be more viable to keep the standard Leman Russ Battle Tanks, or go with one of the variants (to replace one of the tanks)?

Changing one of the Vet Squads to Plasma/LC adding Marbo and dropping the Vendetta would solve your point issues. It would also give you different type of weapons.

As far thas the LC and how you can use it. If it is in a Chimera, and starts the game in it, it can shoot as long as it has NOT moved during that turn. So if you move that Chimera it wont be able to shoot. Food for thought.


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Personally what I would do, is drop the Vendetta, change one of the Vet Squads to Plasma. Add Marbo, change one of the LRBT's to a demolisher with a HF up front.

That leaves you with 5 points for melta bombs on your Officer.

Would the change to plasma in your suggestion also include the addition of the Lascannon?

Also, I think I can see where a Demolisher would come in handy, my issue with it is that it has a significantly shorter range than the battle tank (although 24 inches is still quite a lot to be honest, that and the Str. 10 AP. 2 is really REALLY nice). I take it the Demolisher performs quite well, correct?

Edit: Is including the Heavy Flamer on the Demolisher exactly wise? I know with the shorter range it has to be closer to it's target, which would make it a little more vulnerable to assualts etc. (and the Demolisher cannon is kind of limited in use, because using it too close to the tank itself could cause the explosion to hit the tank itself), but considering that it is an ordinance weapon.....wouldn't it be kind of redundant?


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If I were to find some way to fit a Vendetta into the list.....would it be worth it (assuming I can also fit Marbo in too)?

No, it does not include a Lascannon. And generally speaking, a HF on anything that moves Chimera's/Russ' with HF.

Well I revised the list and found that it is still slightly over 1000 pts.

HQ
Company Command Squad
-x3 Meltaguns
80pts.

Chimera
-Hull mounted heavy flamer
55 pts.

Elite
Guardsman Marbo
85 pts.

Troops
x2 Vet Squads
-x3 Meltaguns per squad
200 pts.

Veteran Squad
-x3 Plasma Guns
115 points

x3 Chimeras
-Hull Mounted Heavy Flamers
165 points

Heavy Support
Leman Russ Battle Tank
-Hull Mounted Heavy Flamer
150 points

Leman Russ Demolisher
-Hull Mounted Heavy Flamer
165 points

With those changes it equals out at about 1015 points. Although it is possible I did something wrong along the way.

If I were to somehow able to get this to fit, it could be possible that I could actually put the Plasma Guns on the CCS in which case I could have four of them as opposed to three, which would also allow my CCS to stay back (which may or may not be a good thing). Also, why would I need Melta Bombs, aren't those only used in assaults on vehicles? That being the case Melta Bombs would not work because I am pretty sure I am going to be keeping my guys within the confines of the Chimera, and having them shoot from the fire points (with their Meltas, or Plasma guns)......unless of course that is not something I am supposed to be doing with this build, in which case Melta Bombs could work (as someone would only have to kill one of my Chimeras to potentially kill off the squad inside).







Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, it seems there are a few possible places where the extra 15 points are coming from.

There is the Plasma guns, which I calculated if I revert them to melta would put me exactly at 1000.

There is the Demolisher, which if I change it to a Leman Russ Battle Tank would also put me exactly at 1000.

Its actually a pretty good list. I agree you may have too many meltas, replace a squad with plasma if you want. If you drop a LRBT, replace it with another vendetta. That way you can justify dropping those meltas because this help with your AT and makes your vendettas less vulnerable in general because there are 2 of them

That is also another good possible list.

I guess I'll have to experiment with it as time goes on, see which performs better. The only thing is that it leaves the Leman Russ alone (although the Leman Russ is slightly less vulnerable), however at the same time it solves the problem of the lone Vendetta (if I were to include the Vendetta).

Manticore.

That is all.

Is the Manticore worth it?

I have heard mixed things about it.....

Marbro is 65pts, not 85pts.

Here is the deal on vehicles that are up front and in the line of fire... Two of everything. Means only one of them may draw fire and will die, but the other may survive to do it's job. New players might split their fire and both might live. No one will shoot at your LRBT, they will shoot at the Demolisher first, then once it is destroyed target the other one or Chimeras, which ever is the greater threat to their units.

Really, your choice should be two LRBTs or two Demolishers (in that reguard).

As for heavy flamers on Demolishers... I rather have the HB and be shooting Turn 1. You have to remember your only moving 6" a turn and 'Lumbering Behemoth' allows you to fire one weapon and the turret. HF is just not worth it till guys are within 12", IMO. Also understand the Demolisher is a anti-infantry weapon, not a anti-vehicle weapon. Only fire the cannon on a vehicle if you have no other option and that vehicle is gonna screw you somehow.

Manticore is fine, if supported. For your list, it will not be supported. You also want to get within 6" of things to shoot it with your meltas, which means if the enemy /does/ get in close with you, you can scatter into your own vehicles. That is the other bad thing about LRBTs and marker shots from them, they can scatter too. So no, do not take it or any artillery for that matter.

The Vendetta does give your list something it lacks... Turn 1 long range AT. If you put a vet squad in it, it is also scoring, so in a objective game you do not have to hold back a Chimera. Melta Vets in a Vendetta give you the option of a suicide drop on AV 14, but I wouldn't suggest it to you as a new player. Something like that threatens the squad AND the Vendetta normally... a poor choice of target, time, and location can be... very bad.

So I feel you have a few options...

3x Melta vets in Chimeras with 2 Vendettas

3x Melta vets in Chimeras with 2 Demolishers

3x Melta vets in Chimeras with 2 LRBTs

5x Melta vets in Chimeras

BTW, there is no such thing as 'to much Melta'.

You just do not have the points at 1k to mess around with plasma. Chimera lists are vehicle hoard lists. You lose a Chimera your accepting your losing the squad in it. Your goal is to get in close and melta it to death. Turn 1, move 6" and shoot the multi-laser. Done, go, repeat. If a AV 12 or less vehicle is within 12", light it up with meltas. If a AV 14 vehicle gets within 6", light it up. Heck, any vehicle gets within 6", light it up with meltas.

But at 1k, going Mech starts to screw you... 2/3s of the games are objective games, that means a troop choice has to sit back /or/ you table your foe. You have only two options. Well, this is where 3 troops screws you. Two to three Chimeras isn't that scary, speciall if only one or two of them can score... I kill them and I cripple your chance of winning the game.

Know your list, learn it's limits, and understand what your going to do or what you have to do to win the game.

Good luck.

So in other words, out of all your recommendations you would recommend that I take 2 Demolishers, or 2 LRBTs correct?

Ok, I can see why you would have 2 of each (as you said it reduces the chance that you lose an essential part of your force because of only having one, and said single unit gets destroyed).

However, there is one thing that kind of confuses me here....the Demolisher has Str 10, AP 2. Why is it you would not use that for anti-vehicle? Is it because it's purpose in the list is to focus on Anti-infantry (because the Chimeras are full of meltas), the usage of the Demolisher on vehicles is reserved as a last resort? I'm assuming this is the case, and with that I can see why you would stipulate that considering that the LRBTs in my original list were really more for anti-infantry than anything (however in case I needed some extra anti-vehicle power the LRBTs would be there).

If I were to alter the list in the way that you recommended, it would probably put me slightly below 1000 pts. (which is good), and quite possibly be quite good.

Also, when did they change the point value to Marbo? If I'm not mistaken the Codex states that his values is 85.....unless of course there was an FAQ that lowered that (and I happened to miss it).

pg 60 BRB

Markers that do not directly hit are half strength if the center hole is not on the vehicle. It /is/ Ordnance though so if you do hit, you roll two dice for armor pen and keep the highest dice.

The AP of the shot means nothing against vehicles, AP 2 just effects infantry armor, so Terminators would not get a Armor save against a Demolisher, just a cover or invuln save.

With scatterable shots, your chances to hit the vehicle is 33%. If you do scatter your probably not going to be able to get it close enough to actually do damage because the average roll on 2d6 is 7 and your tank is BS 3.

Save your shots, don't waste it on a vehicle unless you have no other choice.

Do you have a codex and a base rule book? Marbro is 65pts in my Codex. Listed right under Storm troopers, page 95 IG 5th Ed Codex.

Ok, that is a VERY good point, and with that I think I will most likely go with the demolishers with HBs.

And about Marbo, somehow I think I may have misread the point value (probably because I was tired while writing the list), I see that he is in fact 65 points in the Codex.

Yeah, This is why you do not use marker weapons as your AT weapon, only two sides of the scatter dice have 'Hit' on them. You fire on infantry and just assume your going to scatter, but that you might be close enough to catch some of them in the blast. But when those Terminators DS in and they are in that real nice little cluster, nothing feels better then to get that hit roll.

Demolishers are pretty scary, so they should draw alot of fire. This is good for you as your real fire power is your Vets (non-scatterable, BS 4 melta weapons). What worries players about Demolishers is the potential damage, but you as the person running them shouldn't expect them to crush foes... you will just be disappointed. Keep moving them 6" and shoot, hope they actually kill their points. One round a game (if they get 3 shots) /should/ hit. Getting 3 shots due to living that long or actually hitting should be the frosting on your cake, not the cake itself (if you get my meaning).

BUT, keep this in mind when using DSing units like Marbro or Storm Troopers... shoot them first in the shooting phase incase you scatter on top of them and kill them before they get a shot off. If you actually care about them staying alive after they shoot, don't fire on anything within 14-15" of them. Be careful shooting at stuff within 12" of your vehicles, as I have seen shots scatter right back onto the firer, or even past them.

Glad you now understand the pros and cons on things like Demolishers and other marker shooting vehicles. Don't worry, Indirect is even worse... make sure you read up on it before you use them.

Will do, thank you very much for the help man, if you have any other tips (or if anyone else does) feel free to post them. In the mean time I think I may get on to getting what is needed for said list and build my army.

It is best if you just get some games under your belt. Nothing beats experience really. If you have other questions, feel free to send a PM or post in the Tactics or Rule discussion forum.

Good luck!