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So basically, I've been playing too much Mass Effect (and watching the science channel) recently, and came to realize something about the Necrontyr. Namely, that their entire reason for being placed into the metal bodies is dumb.

So lets start. Any planet that is constantly bombarded by radiation would have life that would adapt very quickly to the life of radiation, like this

Mass Effect wrote:The turian homeworld, Palaven, has a metal-poor core, generating a weak magnetic field and allowing more solar radiation into the atmosphere. To deal with this, most forms of life on Palaven evolved some form of metallic "exoskeleton" to protect themselves. Their reflective plate-like skin makes turians less susceptible to long-term, low-level radiation exposure, but they do not possess any sort of "natural armor". A turian's thick skin does not stop projectiles and directed energy bolts.

This notion is not something that Bioware devised to make a sweet new alien race. This has been said many times by people smarter than I about any alien that might exist on a planet that has a weak magnetic field. The Necrontyr would not have needed science to overcome their short lives, simply because they would have evolved to overcome the threat of constant radiation. Unless the Old Ones created the Necrontyr as they were before they were made into the Necrons, the entire backstory of the Necrontyr makes no sense. As much as I love the Necrons and their new fluff, this piece of information has bothered me quite a bit. How do you overlook something like that?

In short, the Necrontyr would look more like this
rather than a human as we know it.

Out of all of the things they did in the new codex, like removing inertia-less drives, they still haven't fixed this glaring oversight of a plot hole. If the Necrontyr actually developed properly, instead of being cursed with a tragic backstory, they would have needed the metal bodies, the C'tan, the War in Heaven, the souls of the living, or anything. They would just be an ancient race, long forgotten by a galaxy that frankly, my dear, doesn't give a damn.

You know, I should write something for this. Like how /tg/ wrote the Emprasque stories of the Emperor of Man returning, or the Knights Inductor.

Edited out the part where I'm slowed.

The Old ones did not make the Necrontyr. They are both 2 completely different races.

...But yeah, they should have evolved some way of counteracting the radiation. Maybe the change occurred to suddenly for them to adapt?

What you're trying to say here is that evolution in the face of a given environment can logically flow toward one direction only. Which is bs. Mutations are random, so it would take a necrontyr getting protoo-turian traits in the first place, have him survive long enough to have offspring, and so on.

The Necrontyr evolved because short lives (presumably reaching maturity before their horrible environment killed them) increased their chances of passing on their genes. In addition, this presumably influenced their culture, such that scientific advancement was they best legacy they could leave behind (Salarians!)

You're showing a base misunderstanding of the core principals of evolution. It's a process driven by the occurrence of mutations in the genes of an organism. They aren't necessarily advantageous, but more importantly, they're completely random and could happen maybe once every million years. Just because the Necrontyr are forced to exist in such a harsh environment does not mean that they WILL evolve against it, since the potential is random. Plus, being a highly advanced technological race, they likely had the same problem our species faces. Like us, they probably did not have anything which imposed a survival of the fittest attitude on them.

That is true. I'd completely forgotten about that .

CthuluIsSpy wrote:The Old ones did not make the Necrontyr. They are both 2 completely different races.

Sorry, I got mixed up.

...But yeah, they should have evolved some way of counteracting the radiation. Maybe the change occurred to suddenly for them to adapt?

I don't think so. Even if it was, shouldn't they have at least moved underground? Radiation can only penetrate so deep into a planet's crust, so wouldn't that be the logical solution is all of a sudden their magentic field went "poof?"

However, it seems that a metal-poor planet core isn't something that happens overnight, or even in the span of a few years. a planet has to form that way, meaning life would have to follow suit. But apparently, to GW, it doesn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:You're showing a base misunderstanding of the core principals of evolution. It's a process driven by the occurrence of mutations in the genes of an organism. They aren't necessarily advantageous, but more importantly, they're completely random and could happen maybe once every million years. Just because the Necrontyr are forced to exist in such a harsh environment does not mean that they WILL evolve against it, since the potential is random. Plus, being a highly advanced technological race, they likely had the same problem our species faces. Like us, they probably did not have anything which imposed a survival of the fittest attitude on them.

I understand, but then why didn't the Necrontyr leave their planet? If they had the technology to not only create necrodermis and detect being of pure energy feeding on stars, then they probably had interplanetary travel, or even interstellar.

If they didn't go underground (if they didn't evolve the necessary protection against the radiation in the time it took them to go from when they were first created to when they encountered the C'tan), then the next logical option would be to GTFO of their planet of doom. They could live in space, or find another planet like theirs, minus the radiation and whatnot.

The source of their radiation was from the Nightbringer, a deity, eating their sun, presumably the radiation being his cosmic crumbs from his plasma sandwich.

In other words it was some BAD ASS radiation man.

Also, the Necrontyr are not humans, as you implied in your first post. Even if the new codex makes them seem like it...

They did have the ability to travel to other planets, as well as necrodermis. Only, you know... They didn't just pull it out their asses when spawned from the primordial ether. They had to invent it, after thousands or even millions of years.

And what the Nightbringer's after-eats did was mostly make their lifespans incredibly short and gakky, prone to failing and illness. It essentially infected all life on the planet, presumably.

That said...

This is 40k. It is one of the softest science fiction series I can recall. IRL science has absolutely no relevance in the minds of the people who make the setting, there is but one fundamental rule of reality.

The Rule of Cool.

Who cares, if someone said I could have an awesome machine body that heals itself and lasts forvever, I might be first in line.

Void__Dragon wrote:The source of their radiation was from the Nightbringer, a deity, eating their sun, presumably the radiation being his cosmic crumbs from his plasma sandwich.

In other words it was some BAD ASS radiation man.

Also, the Necrontyr are not humans, as you implied in your first post. Even if the new codex makes them seem like it...

They did have the ability to travel to other planets, as well as necrodermis. Only, you know... They didn't just pull it out their asses when spawned from the primordial ether. They had to invent it, after thousands or even millions of years.

And what the Nightbringer's after-eats did was mostly make their lifespans incredibly short and gakky, prone to failing and illness. It essentially infected all life on the planet, presumably.

That said...

This is 40k. It is one of the softest science fiction series I can recall. IRL science has absolutely no relevance in the minds of the people who make the setting, there is but one fundamental rule of reality.

The Rule of Cool.

True, true. So was the nightbringer eating the sun for the entirety of the Necrontyrs existence? Or after a few thousands just start blasting radiation around?

Either way, it doesn't change the fact that they could have just invented suits to shield them from the radiation, gone underground, or left the planet. Not to mention the Necrontyrs planets core, which I'm now assuming is perfectly fine, should have still protected them from the radiation, no matter how badass the source of the radiation (or the actual radiation) was. Unless 99.9% of all Necrontyr civilization was located at the poles of the planet, and everyday they had a fantastic aurora going on in the sky.

McNinja wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:You're showing a base misunderstanding of the core principals of evolution. It's a process driven by the occurrence of mutations in the genes of an organism. They aren't necessarily advantageous, but more importantly, they're completely random and could happen maybe once every million years. Just because the Necrontyr are forced to exist in such a harsh environment does not mean that they WILL evolve against it, since the potential is random. Plus, being a highly advanced technological race, they likely had the same problem our species faces. Like us, they probably did not have anything which imposed a survival of the fittest attitude on them.

I understand, but then why didn't the Necrontyr leave their planet? If they had the technology to not only create necrodermis and detect being of pure energy feeding on stars, then they probably had interplanetary travel, or even interstellar.

If they didn't go underground (if they didn't evolve the necessary protection against the radiation in the time it took them to go from when they were first created to when they encountered the C'tan), then the next logical option would be to GTFO of their planet of doom. They could live in space, or find another planet like theirs, minus the radiation and whatnot.

They did leave their system, but their FTL was slower, and only made the problem worse. They also lived underground tending the huge tombs of their ancestors.

It's almost as if the people writing this work of fiction didn't adhere strictly to scientific facts regarding evolution and radioactivity.

Frankly I'm shocked.

The thing is, even if they leave their home planet, they'll still live short lives, only not as gakky. As has been pointed out, a short life where the Necrontyr start breeding ASAP improves the chances of passing on their genetic legacy. Their short life-span thus isn't directly caused by the radiation, but rather as a reaction to it.

McNinja wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:The Old ones did not make the Necrontyr. They are both 2 completely different races.

Sorry, I got mixed up.

...But yeah, they should have evolved some way of counteracting the radiation. Maybe the change occurred to suddenly for them to adapt?

I don't think so. Even if it was, shouldn't they have at least moved underground? Radiation can only penetrate so deep into a planet's crust, so wouldn't that be the logical solution is all of a sudden their magentic field went "poof?"

However, it seems that a metal-poor planet core isn't something that happens overnight, or even in the span of a few years. a planet has to form that way, meaning life would have to follow suit. But apparently, to GW, it doesn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:You're showing a base misunderstanding of the core principals of evolution. It's a process driven by the occurrence of mutations in the genes of an organism. They aren't necessarily advantageous, but more importantly, they're completely random and could happen maybe once every million years. Just because the Necrontyr are forced to exist in such a harsh environment does not mean that they WILL evolve against it, since the potential is random. Plus, being a highly advanced technological race, they likely had the same problem our species faces. Like us, they probably did not have anything which imposed a survival of the fittest attitude on them.

I understand, but then why didn't the Necrontyr leave their planet? If they had the technology to not only create necrodermis and detect being of pure energy feeding on stars, then they probably had interplanetary travel, or even interstellar.

If they didn't go underground (if they didn't evolve the necessary protection against the radiation in the time it took them to go from when they were first created to when they encountered the C'tan), then the next logical option would be to GTFO of their planet of doom. They could live in space, or find another planet like theirs, minus the radiation and whatnot.

They did leave the planets which did not solve the problem, and aside from that, the real thing that drove them to becoming the Necrons wasn't simply seeking longer life, but seeking the immortality they saw in the Old Ones.

What are the chances that evolution isn't a universal constant?

Andilus Greatsword wrote:What are the chances that evolution isn't a universal constant?

Very low, but, depending on their genetic makeup, mutability might be extremely low. The less mutations, the slower a species is at changing.

Actually I think the necron's adaptation of their planet is a rather good one.

Shorter life spans means shorter exposure to radiation which in turn means that when they pass on their genes theres less of a chance of any defecting genes being passed on.

Evolution doesn't mean evolving into a super being, as someone stated before, evolutions are random and whatever works works!

Seeing as it take a long time to work up from prehistoric to high tech I doubt there was a way for them to go around their short lives. But even with their short lives they managed to create technology that rivalled the old ones. Of course the old ones were ahead of them, but in a different way. Whereas the Old Ones used life and the warp (which at that point was calm and benign), the Necrons used pure technology which is seen in their decendents (Folding of space to get to points)

However, I doubt that even with their high technology they would be able to lengthen their lives to the extent of the Old Ones. Plus with the pain of radiation (I got this from lexicanum so obviously there's a probablity it could be junk science), it made them really resent the Old Ones.

So, after reading this thread, this is how I see it.
1: The Necrontyr evolve into, well Necrontyr.
2: Radiation from their sun causes Necrontyr to die prematurely and / or having their genes defect.
3: A random mutation appears! The Necrontyr evolve short lifespans to be able to breed ASAP.
4: Necrontyr reach the state in technology where they can leave their planet / build suits to protect them from radiation, but it is already too late: Their genes are encoded for short lives any way.
Then they leave their homeworld, travel around, and encounter the Old Ones. They grow envious because Old Ones live forever whilst they have short lives just because of their stupid star.

The Cornerfag~ wrote:So, after reading this thread, this is how I see it.
1: The Necrontyr evolve into, well Necrontyr.
2: Radiation from their sun causes Necrontyr to die prematurely and / or having their genes defect.
3: A random mutation appears! The Necrontyr evolve short lifespans to be able to breed ASAP.
4: Necrontyr reach the state in technology where they can leave their planet / build suits to protect them from radiation, but it is already too late: Their genes are encoded for short lives any way.
Then they leave their homeworld, travel around, and encounter the Old Ones. They grow envious because Old Ones live forever whilst they have short lives just because of their stupid star.

Interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way, but it makes sense.

McNinja wrote:The Necrontyr would not have needed science to overcome their short lives, simply because they would have evolved to overcome the threat of constant radiation.

Evolution only "cares" about the species, not the individual. As others have said, maybe evolution resulted in an extremely high birth rate, and that is what kept them from going extinct? Life still sucks for any individual Necrontyr, but the species marches on.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:What are the chances that evolution isn't a universal constant?

Zero.

AlexHolker wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:What are the chances that evolution isn't a universal constant?

Zero.

Now that unshakeable certainty makes me very curious. I'm just saying, I wouldn't presume anything about xenobiology, and am curious if evolution could be an earthly phenomenon.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Now that unshakeable certainty makes me very curious. I'm just saying, I wouldn't presume anything about xenobiology, and am curious if evolution could be an earthly phenomenon.

No. What evolution really means is:

1. If something is reproduced and;
2. that reproduction can result in variation from the original;

then the variations that are most favourable to the continued reproduction of that "bloodline" will tend to reproduce faster than the others, eventually "crowding out" the other bloodlines.

It isn't even limited to biology - evolutionary advances in technology are based on the concept that finding what works and starting from there is better than starting from scratch.