CSM - wtf

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**kb305**

plague marines... wtf is that? is there any reason not to take these as your one and only troop choice?

compared to a regular unit of 5 CSM i get:

DOUBLE THE NUMBER OF SPECIAL WEAPONS - two plasma guns, toughness 5, cannot assault them (blight grenades), fearless, a SECOND SAVING THROW (feel no pain).

lets say you try to make the regular CSM even slightly comparable by giving them +1 toughness nurgle mark. the regular CSM would then become more expensive???

**King Pariah**

Plague Marines really aren't broken for their point cost and there are plenty of ways to negate FNP. With plasma, you got a chance it blows up in your face and being AP2 it would both pretty much kill said marine and deny FNP

In truth, CSM has been regarded as one of the worst codexes to play with. Plague marines are, if anything, a saving grace.

**Vaktathi**

kb305 wrote:i dont play the game but i was looking through the CSM codex.

plague marines... wtf is that? is there any reason not to take these as your one and only troop choice?

Yes, they cost half again as much as a basic CSM without being any killier, only have I3, and are killed by heavy weapons like battlecannons/plasma guns/Krak Missiles/melta guns/poweweapons, etc just as easily as their far cheaper bretheren. They also don't fit thematically into many armies.

Plague marines are good units, don't get me wrong, but there are often good reasons not to take them. The basic CSM isn't by any means a bad unit, in fact, if it weren't for Space Wolves (who basically get the same unit at a points discount with more and cheaper options and sergeants plus Counterattack and ATSKNF and Acute Senses) the basic CSM unit would still likely be seen as one of the best troops units in the game.

**SagesStone**

I agree, Feel No Pain isn't all that special anymore. Few units used to get it but now it's like they grab handfuls of it and dump it onto the new codices as they write them.

**King Pariah**

Hell if you want to see "over powered" you should see our good old Necrons, a 5+ version of FNP (unless a rez orb is taken, then it's 4+) that can't be negated unless the unit is wiped out.

Believe me though, it's really not that overpowered especially when most other armies are hitting before you in assault anyway

**kb305**

Vaktathi wrote:
kb305 wrote:i dont play the game but i was looking through the CSM codex.

plague marines... wtf is that? is there any reason not to take these as your one and only troop choice?
Yes, they cost half again as much as a basic CSM without being any killier, only have I3, and are killed by heavy weapons like battlecannons/plasma guns/Krak Missiles/melta guns/poweweapons, etc just as easily as their far cheaper bretheren. They also don't fit thematically into many armies.

Plague marines are good units, don't get me wrong, but there are often good reasons not to take them. The basic CSM isn't by any means a bad unit, in fact, if it weren't for Space Wolves (who basically get the same unit at a points discount with more and cheaper options and sergeants plus Counterattack and ATSKNF and Acute Senses) the basic CSM unit would still likely be seen as one of the best troops units in the game.

they are more killer tho. they get twice as many special weapons and they can ignore the over heat rule because of feel no pain not to mention all the awesome stuff they get.

plague marines are the clear winner over regular csm.

doesnt the space wolves thing piss you off too? pretty broken game, no?

**SagesStone**

FNP doesn't make them ignore the overheat, though may as well.

**Ronin**

kb305 wrote:they are more killer tho. they get twice as many special weapons and they can ignore the over heat rule because of feel no pain not to mention all the awesome stuff they get.

plague marines are the clear winner over regular csm.

doesnt the space wolves thing piss you off too? pretty broken game, no?

For someone who doesnt play the game you seem to think you know what you're talking about. Trust us, plague marines arent all that crash hot. And the Space Wolf thing is just something everyone gets over, moves on and play.

**Vaktathi**

kb305 wrote:
they are more killer tho. they get twice as many special weapons and they can ignore the over heat rule because of feel no pain not to mention all the awesome stuff they get.

Only if you're talking strictly 5man squads do PM's have twice as many special weapons, other than that they have identical weapons however. You'd rarely take minimum sized squads like that. For PM's you'll often see 7-10 man squads. For that cost, you're definitely talking about 10man basic CSM squads too and they can get double specials then or a heavy weapon if they want. They don't ignore the overheat rule, I've seen PM's die to overheats like anything else, it just means they have a lower incidence.

**kb305**

Ronin wrote:
kb305 wrote:they are more killer tho. they get twice as many special weapons and they can ignore the over heat rule because of feel no pain not to mention all the awesome stuff they get.

plague marines are the clear winner over regular csm.

doesnt the space wolves thing piss you off too? pretty broken game, no?

For someone who doesnt play the game you seem to think you know what you're talking about. Trust us, plague marines arent all that crash hot. And the Space Wolf thing is just something everyone gets over, moves on and play.

i used to play the game 12 years back. second edition i believe. it was pretty broken back then too. cyclone missle launcher, 12 inch crack missle template. anyone remember that? iv also been playing video games since i was 6 years old including MMOs. you think i'm stupid when it comes to crunching numbers and figuring this stuff out?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:
kb305 wrote:
they are more killer tho. they get twice as many special weapons and they can ignore the over heat rule because of feel no pain not to mention all the awesome stuff they get.
Only if you're talking strictly 5man squads do PM's have twice as many special weapons, other than that they have identical weapons however. You'd rarely take minimum sized squads like that. For PM's you'll often see 7-10 man squads. For that cost, you're definitely talking about 10man basic CSM squads too and they can get double specials then or a heavy weapon if they want. They don't ignore the overheat rule, I've seen PM's die to overheats like anything else, it just means they have a lower incidence.

why wouldnt you take small squads? who wants a bunch of boltguns?

id take like 5 5 man squads each with two plasma guns.

**Ronin**

kb305 wrote:why wouldnt you take small squads? who wants a bunch of boltguns?

id take like 5 5 man squads each with two plasma guns.

More bodies on the field, less prone to having your whole unit being wiped out on the go, less KP for Annihilation missions, for a couple reasons. I also never said you were stupid. I just think there's more to the game than just out-right number-crunching. It's an easy trap to fall into.

**juraigamer**

CSM troops are some of the most versatile in the game. Taking cult units is best in single digit numbers, going double digits means its best to take regular CSM.

Instead of complaining, just make smart choices from the codex.

**Vaktathi**

kb305 wrote:
why wouldnt you take small squads? who wants a bunch of boltguns?

id take like 5 5 man squads each with two plasma guns.

The larger squads are harder to wipe out and better able to hold objectives, they're great CC units at 10 strong with 2 attacks each, and boltguns aren't awful weapons.

**monkeypuzzle**

To answer the original question: Yes Plague Marines are a nice choice, no they are not an automatic choice. You have to take TWO troops choice so you can either take two PM squads or mix it up. There are reasons for and against them, it depends on the players' army really.

I think you are not quite remembering your 2nd edition rules. Krak missiles never had a 12" blast. Also the rules were far more complicated. but I wouldn't describe them as broken. If you don't play the game now and haven't for over a decade then I wouldn't start criticising the game to people who enjoy it. It just winds players up!

**kb305**

Vaktathi wrote:
kb305 wrote:
why wouldnt you take small squads? who wants a bunch of boltguns?

id take like 5 5 man squads each with two plasma guns.
The larger squads are harder to wipe out and better able to hold objectives, they're great CC units at 10 strong with 2 attacks each, and boltguns aren't awful weapons.

plague marines get 2 CC attacks each too. and with tons of small, tough hard hitting plasma gunner units all over place who cares if one gets knocked out.

throw in a demon prince, maybe some raptors with melta guns, havocs with meltaguns and maybe oblitirators.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

monkeypuzzle wrote:To answer the original question: Yes Plague Marines are a nice choice, no they are not an automatic choice. You have to take TWO troops choice so you can either take two PM squads or mix it up. There are reasons for and against them, it depends on the players' army really.

I think you are not quite remembering your 2nd edition rules. Krak missiles never had a 12" blast. Also the rules were far more complicated. but I wouldn't describe them as broken. If you don't play the game now and haven't for over a decade then I wouldn't start criticising the game to people who enjoy it. It just winds players up!

yes there was, it was the cyclone terminator missle launcher. it allowed you to fire all 12 krak missles at once. look it up.

**KingDeath**

Plaquemarines are good but expensive. Using them to carry plasmaguns is ineffective, ( 2 plasma shots at 24inch isn't that hot for +30 points ), you want melters ( cheaper, almost guaranteed to effect vehicles when hit ). Sooner or later you have to ask yourself if normal chaosmarines aren't more cost effective at grabbing and holding objects ( 5csm, melter/combimelter, rhino, never leave the rhino ).
Still, plaquemarines are one of the few tolerable choices in a book full of awefully overcosted crap so, if you can afford them, take them.

**Che-Vito**

DakkaDakka wrote:

**Rochronos**

Plague Marines RULE! OK?
The OP seems to think they're game winners. Sadly no.
BUT... Holding objectives, tarpit tactics, summoning unit, and bodyguard... these are a few of my favourite things.
Give the AssChamp a plasma pistol and PF + 2xMelta and rhino then go tank hunting!
I always feild 2x 8-man(corpse) with the same profile as above. Usually backed up with a sorcerer thrown in. Never fails!
As for the Codex, I think it is well balanced. One could always wish for more special options but then Mat Ward would have to ret con the Eye of Terror into Toys'er'Us. That would be lame

**Che-Vito**

DakkaDakka wrote:

**Castiel**

You're right and wrong, as with most things in 40K. Yes, they are good units and have their uses, but the standard marines are often more useful and cheaper, and therefore often the better choice.

Also, I see you're new here, welcome to Dakka!

**kb305**

KingDeath wrote:Plaquemarines are good but expensive. Using them to carry plasmaguns is ineffective, ( 2 plasma shots at 24inch isn't that hot for +30 points ), you want melters ( cheaper, almost guaranteed to effect vehicles when hit ). Sooner or later you have to ask yourself if normal chaosmarines aren't more cost effective at grabbing and holding objects ( 5csm, melter/combimelter, rhino, never leave the rhino ).
Still, plaquemarines are one of the few tolerable choices in a book full of awefully overcosted crap so, if you can afford them, take them.

i would prefer plasma guns for the longer range, rapid fire at 12 inchs, and getting a double save on gets hot from FNP.

you could always give your 5 man plague marine squads 2 meltaguns tho if you wanted???

i bet 5 plague marines = about 10 regular CSM. the bolters wont be doing jack to them. 5+ to wound and then double armour save. COME AT ME.

**AvatarForm**

Khorne Bezerkers in rhinos.

Leave the Nurgle boys at home.

**blood reaper**

Chaos overpowered, LOL?

At 23pts plus 15 for a Plasma they don't come cheap but have several very good uses.

**Ronin**

kb305 wrote:
KingDeath wrote:Plaquemarines are good but expensive. Using them to carry plasmaguns is ineffective, ( 2 plasma shots at 24inch isn't that hot for +30 points ), you want melters ( cheaper, almost guaranteed to effect vehicles when hit ). Sooner or later you have to ask yourself if normal chaosmarines aren't more cost effective at grabbing and holding objects ( 5csm, melter/combimelter, rhino, never leave the rhino ).
Still, plaquemarines are one of the few tolerable choices in a book full of awefully overcosted crap so, if you can afford them, take them.

i would prefer plasma guns for the longer range, rapid fire at 12 inchs, and getting a double save on gets hot from FNP.

you could always give your 5 man plague marine squads 2 meltaguns tho if you wanted???

i bet 5 plague marines = about 10 regular CSM. the bolters wont be doing jack to them. 5+ to wound and then double armour save. COME AT ME.

Well you seem pretty set on this, so have at it. And let us know how it goes later

**Jubear**

kb305 wrote:i dont play the game but i was looking through the CSM codex.

plague marines... wtf is that? is there any reason not to take these as your one and only troop choice?

compared to a regular unit of 5 CSM i get:

DOUBLE THE NUMBER OF SPECIAL WEAPONS - two plasma guns, toughness 5, cannot assault them (blight grenades), fearless, a SECOND SAVING THROW (feel no pain).

lets say you try to make the regular CSM even slightly comparable by giving them +1 toughness nurgle mark. the regular CSM would then become more expensive???

seriously? do the developers even consider game balance at all when they make up these rules?

seems like it would be a cool game to get into in some ways but considering horribly broken and unbalanced rules i dont know... waste of time maybe.

So you dont know how to play the game but you have decided that its all horrible unbalanced? Get some games under your built then come here and complain.