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Looking for a verification on how Entropic Strike works against vehicles. My understanding of the rule is that:

1. Roll to hit as normal.
2. Any hits are then rolled on a 4+ reduce the vehicle's armor by 1.
3. Then those hits roll to pen as normal against the reduced armor of the vehicle.

One of the guys at the FLGS seemed to materialize out of no where, just as I was doing the rolls and declared that you only get to roll to reduce the vehicle armor and those attacks are "spent" doing that. Thus you do not roll to pen as normal.

It didn't sound right at all to me, but my opponent liked the sound of that, and we ended up playing that way for the rest of the game. To say the least, the scarabs performed less than stellar...

For that to be true, the rule would read "instead of" rolling to pen/glance. It doesn't, so you do.

Yeah, the next time one of those A-Holes does that, show him where it says in the book that the hit isn't "spent".
If he keeps being a prat just whack him with the book.

Thanks guys, that's what I thought. I guess the problem was that alot of folks nearby thought he was the Necron rules god of the day beacuse he claimed to have memorized the book, lol.

Just take 8+ scarab bases, most vehicles moving at combat speed will be destroyed before you ever get to the roll to penetrate step; on average.

8 charging bases = 40 attacks.
40 Attack average 20 hits at combat speed.
20 hits average -10AV on all sides.
most vehicles have a rear AV: 10.
0AV or less on any side = wrecked.

This is all by current wording; I fairly well expect this to get changed via FAQ/Errata sometime soon(as 120 points in scarabs should not be able to completely neutralize any vehicle within 18-24"; completely neutralize because the vehicle must move cruising speed+ to within 18" in order to not fear auto-death on average, which means no shooting).

Tank shocking them is also a poor idea unless you are moving cruising speed to do so(even then there is little point to it other than to pass by them, which you could do without tank-shocking and moving at cruising); a 50/50 chance to drop all AV by 1 while losing your 3W base(since it pretty much could never hurt any tank's front AV enough to stop it) means that the 91.66% of the time when the Scarabs pass their Ld, they will allow the tank to pass(or get out from under it), then charge the tank; thus wrecking it about half the time.

Yeah, when I first started reading the codex I thought the entropic strike rule would make scarabs great against vehicles in a one-two punch with another unit by lowering the armor and allowing another unit to wreck the vehicle with shooting. But, the way the rules currently read, it's just a one punch with the scarabs... like a bar fight.

Would an FAQ stating that no vehicle's AV can go below 10 be too harsh of a change? Perhaps reducing the AV on a roll of a 6, instead?

Well yes, because then the entire point of them reducing the AV to 0 to wreck a vehicle would never happen.

The trick, if you want to avoid the explosion killing a ton of your scarabs, is to multicharge where possible.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Well yes, because then the entire point of them reducing the AV to 0 to wreck a vehicle would never happen.

The trick, if you want to avoid the explosion killing a ton of your scarabs, is to multicharge where possible.

But, if all you need is 28 hits to wreck any vehicle in the game, I feel that something is certainly wrong. Especially from a unit that has 40 attacks on the charge (76 attacks if you take into account some of these 9-Spyder, first-turn assault lists). All for 150 points...

Personally, I hope nothing is done to change this, because I greatly dislike mechanized 5th edition. But, these point-and-click scarabs, along with Imotekh's lightning strikes (that will blow up 1/6 of the enemy transports every turn), the tournament scene will surely change. Even a 9-venom, 3-ravager army would hate to come up against a Necron player in a tournament. It seems like a rather drastic rule to introduce, this -1 AV rule.

Wait for the playtesting to finalize before you claim the sky is falling.

Oaka wrote:
But, if all you need is 28 hits to wreck any vehicle in the game,

Try moving your vehicles from time to time.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Oaka wrote:
But, if all you need is 28 hits to wreck any vehicle in the game,

Try moving your vehicles from time to time.

Even if you move, 28 hits is the average amount to wreck a vehicle. It's just harder to get those hits.

Move 6" or less (but more than 0) and it's 56 attacks on average to get those 28 hits.

DarknessEternal wrote:
Try moving your vehicles from time to time.

That statement is quite ignorant. The vehicles that can move 6 inches or more all the time and still be effective are AV10 on rear armour.

Oaka wrote:That statement is quite ignorant.

That statement is worthless.

The example that provoked that response read like it assume that the vehicles did not move.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Just take 8+ scarab bases, most vehicles moving at combat speed will be destroyed before you ever get to the roll to penetrate step; on average.

8 charging bases = 40 attacks.
40 Attack average 20 hits at combat speed.
20 hits average -10AV on all sides.
most vehicles have a rear AV: 10.
0AV or less on any side = wrecked.

This is all by current wording; I fairly well expect this to get changed via FAQ/Errata sometime soon(as 120 points in scarabs should not be able to completely neutralize any vehicle within 18-24"; completely neutralize because the vehicle must move cruising speed+ to within 18" in order to not fear auto-death on average, which means no shooting).

Tank shocking them is also a poor idea unless you are moving cruising speed to do so(even then there is little point to it other than to pass by them, which you could do without tank-shocking and moving at cruising); a 50/50 chance to drop all AV by 1 while losing your 3W base(since it pretty much could never hurt any tank's front AV enough to stop it) means that the 91.66% of the time when the Scarabs pass their Ld, they will allow the tank to pass(or get out from under it), then charge the tank; thus wrecking it about half the time.

Scarabs are fearless man, so they will always pass that test for tank shock.

Ok so the 100% of the time that they pass their Ld.

It really doesn't change what I was saying about it not being a good idea against them(as they will allow the tank to pass and charge it)

Oaka wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Well yes, because then the entire point of them reducing the AV to 0 to wreck a vehicle would never happen.

The trick, if you want to avoid the explosion killing a ton of your scarabs, is to multicharge where possible.

But, if all you need is 28 hits to wreck any vehicle in the game, I feel that something is certainly wrong. Especially from a unit that has 40 attacks on the charge (76 attacks if you take into account some of these 9-Spyder, first-turn assault lists). All for 150 points...

Personally, I hope nothing is done to change this, because I greatly dislike mechanized 5th edition. But, these point-and-click scarabs, along with Imotekh's lightning strikes (that will blow up 1/6 of the enemy transports every turn), the tournament scene will surely change. Even a 9-venom, 3-ravager army would hate to come up against a Necron player in a tournament. It seems like a rather drastic rule to introduce, this -1 AV rule.

so people complain about 10 bases (150 points) of scarabs nailing a 35 point rhino...buuut a multimelta land speeder nailing a 200 plus point land raider is ok?! i think that its just a case of...this is a rule that others cant use! small things shouldnt be able to take out bug things!

its quite simple to protect your tanks from the bugs. put a line of infantry in front or shoot the scarabs on the way in with str6 plus weaponry. use flamers etc. its not that hard. hopefully this will encourage infantry to actually dismount at sometime and not just ride around in their cans.

Rocdocta2 wrote:so people complain about 10 bases (150 points) of scarabs nailing a 35 point rhino...buuut a multimelta land speeder nailing a 200 plus point land raider is ok?! i think that its just a case of...this is a rule that others cant use! small things shouldnt be able to take out bug things!

its quite simple to protect your tanks from the bugs. put a line of infantry in front or shoot the scarabs on the way in with str6 plus weaponry. use flamers etc. its not that hard. hopefully this will encourage infantry to actually dismount at sometime and not just ride around in their cans.

While I agree with the core of your sentiment; I disagree with a few points.

1) it is not the 35 point rhino getting nailed by the 150 point Scarab swarm that people complain about; it is the 150+ point Leman russ, or the 115 point vindicator that cannot get close enough to kill enough of them to not instantly die to their charge, or the 250 point Land raider, or the 115+ point Wave serpent, or so on.

2) A MM land Speeder has a single shot with a short ranged weapon and can be taken out much easier than the scarab swarm(most weapons that are S6+ are also low in # of Shots, assault cannon aside).

3) The 150 Points in scarabs are generally going to be getting themselves 3+ cover saves(Large base, but small models, and Swarms have stealth)

4) The single shot MM Speeder has a 1.8519% chance to destroy the land raider if the shot is taken from beyond 12", or a 19.444% chance when the shot is taken within 12". 10 Scarabs have a roughly 48% chance to destroy a Combat-speed moved land raider on the charge(pretty much a 100% chance if the land raider is stunned or immobilized, or was stationary last turn). Also if only a few of the entropic strikes fail all of the hits are still likely to Glance/pen; which could still destroy the Raider.

5) The scarabs have an overall 19-24" assault range(Taking movement and running into account); this equates to an equal radius of denied table to any/all vehicles; something that the Land speeder does not do(since it is no where near a guaranteed, nor even likely, vehicle kill).

6) in order for a tank to enter the 19-24" radius of the Scarab's threat range with any sense of safety, said vehicle will have to move at cruising speed; thus neutralizing the vehicle for all but fast vehicles(another thing that the Speeder does not do).

7) The speeder shooting a transport will not damage the embarked troops most of the time(1-3 may get lost in an explosion depending on their Toughness and save values); a transport that moves well within the 19-24" threat range of the 10-Scarab unit is likely to get surrounded, thus losing the embarked unit as well.

150 points of scarabs is a heck of a lot scarier than 180 points of MM Speeders(still even scarier than 210 points of HF/MM Speeders). The only thing as scary is Eldar Jet-locks(which are generally more expensive, often times far more expensive)

What I agree with is that this will likely put a kibosh on the all-mech meta; which is very good(it is just boring to play against without a fun mech-list like IG Air-cav, Or Ork Speed-freaks).

This sounds a awefull lot like imperial players complaining because they don't have the newest toy.

It is not that difficult to kill T3 swarm creatures. There is lots of template/blast weapons available to the imperial armies, most of the imperial blasts will kill 2 bases per unsaved wound (for example, a Leman russ shoots a big blast, get's 3-5 bases covered, if the swarms is not in cover, then that's 6-10 dead bases, if they are in cover - it's still 2-4 dead bases (after a 3+ cover save))

Kel - most people are complaining because razorspam is no longer as effective. Frankly i dont care, as im thoroughly bored of it - as you seem to be as well!

Came 15th this weekend with a no-vehicle GK army, with 13/44 entrants taking GK. BT won, Tau second!

It does lend some usefulness to the LR eradicator...


Nos: yeah totally; I started playing all infantry gun-line guard at most local tourneys just because most of the Mech/Anti-mech meta could not deal with 125 models on the table(what with all the high-Strength, Single-shot, anti-tank guns like Meltas).

Yep, its why i dont mind a lack of lascannon and plasma - sure, get close to me with meltaguns, I loooove you when youre within 12"!

I don't understand the sentiment that scarabs should be "Errated or FAQ'D soon" Seems kind of silly, When it is really the main source of Anti-tank in the Necron book. All the suggested "Adjustments" so far would make them completely useless.

I don't know what people are expecting to change about it.

It is not the scarabs that should be errata'd; it is the Entropic Strike.

As I pointed out earlier most other Anti-tank sits around a 25% reliability. Scarabs with the current ES wording have a much, much higher reliability; especially with all the Glance-capable shooting in the Necron Army(you only need to stun the vehicle to give 6+ Scarabs a nearly 100% chance to destroy any vehicle on the charge).

Vehicles' survivability is based entirely on AV+Damage table; they can generally be hit far easier in CC than any other unit when they are maintaining combat efficiency, relying on most enemies being unable to even damage them, and then the Damage tables to keep them at least alive(only a 33% chance on a Pen to kill a tank). A large number of Entropic Strike hits can kill a veheicle without ever having to roll for penetration let alone look at the damage table.

I don't think Entropic strike is going to be changed at all in the FAQ/Errata.

You do though, I'm curious what you think they are going to change about it.

As I've pointed out before, the earlier version of the codex actually had Entropic Strike resolving at the END of the phase against vehicles, meaning Scarabs themselves weren't going to be destroying vehicles the same phase they assaulted.

However, in the final version, they changed this, which clearly shows that they actually wanted Scarabs to be utter bad-asses against vehicles.

And given that all of their ranged shooting is pretty much 36" or less (except for the Doomsday Ark), the Necrons are designed to have the Scarabs do a bunch of damage to vehicles...that is their whole point!

So don't hold your breath on a FAQ nerfing Scarabs, because it would be a massive surprise if it did.