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Ok what happens if I mark a unit with an IC in it and then the IC leaves that unit is the IC still marked?

No, as the IC is part of the unit you are targeting as the Deathmarks entered, but is no longer if the IC leaves that unit.

well if that's the case can I say the IC is marked and not the squad?

You cannot. The rule says, '-pick a unit.' If the IC is part of another unit when the Deathmarks come on, then he's not an independently targetable unit.

From the sounds of it ICs are fairly well protected from being marked.

How about this hypothetical question then, just because I'm curious:

What if you pick an IC while he isn't in coherency with a unit? What happens if he then subsequently joins a unit?

At this point in time, the IC is not part of a unit...therefore s/he is his/her own unit, right? If they happen to be marked before joining a unit...what happens to the mark? Does it stay on the IC only? Or is it transfered to the unit the IC joins? Or perhaps it magically vanishes (in my mind) until the IC is on their own again?

Vanishes to shooting(you are not shooting at the, we'll say SM captain unit; you are shooting at the unit he is attached to).

Shows up in assault(IC is his own unit for the actual attacks, so wounds on him as a marked unit go to him on the 2+).

The inverse is true for a Unit later joined by an IC(All shooting hits will wound on a 2+, even if there are more than enough hits to reasonably assume that the IC will be taking saves against at least 1 of those wounds; Fighting the IC in assault is not fighting the marked unit, so normal S vs T chart for wounding).

So, in otherwords Kel, it's an exercise in futility to attempt to mark an IC for death, because the only locations they are not immune to the mark is close combat and when the IC is standing on his own, which happens very rarely...right?

Pretty much right, ICs shouldnt be marked unless its a necron lord in command barge, as theyre unlikely to be joining a unit

Against the rules of engagement. Necrons do have some honour and morals. Only Mel Gibson would shoot the officers first.

You didn't read the fluff in the Necron book. It's not uncommon for them to send a Wraith in to kill the commander the night before the battle.

So if I was to mark a unit of four thunderwolf lords in a pack they could split up and reform and the mark is gone?

My guess is that it'll be FAQ that you may mark IC and they will still count as a unit in other units. On the other hand IC (or other models) that leave a marked unit wont count as being marked.

Tri wrote:My guess is that it'll be FAQ that you may mark IC and they will still count as a unit in other units. On the other hand IC (or other models) that leave a marked unit wont count as being marked.

Second part is likely, for the event of an IC attached a unit and the the Deathmarks, mark the unit; but that is more for the claims that the unit that was marked is no longer in existence when the IC leaves(the marked unit being Squad A + IC; and the current 2 units being Squads A, and then IC).

The first Part would be impossible to handle under the current edition rules and require a Major rule change for 6th edition(thus returning us to the old Mixed unit rules, but becoming even more complicated as you would then have to allocate hits before rolling to wound).

Teufelhunde: yes it is pretty much an exercise in futility to attempt to get the mark on an IC. First off, ICs Join units, so when an IC is attached to a unit, and they are all marked it is the unit that is marked(the IC suffers from shooting wounds on 2+s though), not the IC(he might be able to suffer the 2+ to-wound in CC if he was attached to the unit when they were marked, but if he leaves at any point CC+Shooting wounds are no longer 2+s until he rejoins the marked unit and then it is shooting only for incredibly complex reasons).

Also; for the benefit of the mark, it is wasted to mark single ICs, ever. It is far better to Mark full units, especially those that can be joined by ICs(such as that core unit for your buddies "Deathstar" that require his tooled up IC). MCs are the only single-model units that should ever be marked; and even then they should be notoriously hard to kill MCs(wraithlords, Regenifexes, Gargantuan Creatures, etc).

The character is a unit of one model and the IC rule lets them join other units (and other characters). If they have joined a unit they cannot be singled out by shooting.

I see no removal of the characters unit or the ability to target them (only from being singles out in shooting); they still count as a separate unit in the assault phase, In fact KP would not be awarded for killing a character if he was in a unit unless he still counts as a unit.

You cannot individually target, nor roll to wound against, an IC attached to a unit.

The Unit the IC attaches to, and the IC himself become 1 unit; the FAQ tells us that the IC is still worth a separate KP

GW BRB FAQ wrote:Q: If an Independent Character has joined a unit, and
they are all destroyed how many kill points are they
worth? (p91)
A: Two. The unit is worth one and the Independent
Character is also worth one.

They do not ever claim that the Unit and IC are 2 units(because they are not, if they were then the IC would always be able to shoot at a separate target and be targeted separately, and well, wouldn't be attached to the unit at all).

Also Ic's join to units, units do not join ICs(excepting the Technicality of an IC joining an IC, because an IC is a Unit).

In order to join a unit, an independent character
simply has to move so that he is within the 2"
coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of
their Movement phase.

However this does not stop another unit moving within 2" of the IC before the end of the movement phase and him joining them.

IC cannot be picked out BY SHOOTING ... In the assault phase "independent characters are always treated as a separate single-model unit" . Now that does leave a chunk of the game open.

In this case we have a power that effects unit and the IC is a unit of one model that may join other unit.

Now while we could debate this till the cows come home it would still matter little as the power would still need to effect the unit (thatthe IC joined) for them to be able wound them with shooting attacks (close combat would be fine). I cannot answers this as this mechanic changes from codex to codex.

Page 49 - when combat is over the IC is again treated as a normal member of the unit. (bad paraphrase, but very simple for you to find yourself.

They are not a member and a unit at the same time.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Page 49 - when combat is over the IC is again treated as a normal member of the unit. (bad paraphrase, but very simple for you to find yourself.

They are not a member and a unit at the same time.

Yet that doesn't show that the character is not also a unit of their own. Nothing shows that a character stops being a unit when it joins another ... only that it is now counts as part of that unit.

No, it shows they are a normal member of the unit.

If they were always a unit in and of themselves the entire combat rules for ICs would be irrelevant.

Good luck with this debate. It's been a gray area in the rules for Eldar players with Guide, Doom, and Fortune for an eternity.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, it shows they are a normal member of the unit.

If they were always a unit in and of themselves the entire combat rules for ICs would be irrelevant.

If that were true then ... the entire shooting rules for ICs would be irrelevant.

Tri wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, it shows they are a normal member of the unit.

If they were always a unit in and of themselves the entire combat rules for ICs would be irrelevant.

If that were true then ... the entire shooting rules for ICs would be irrelevant.

Page 48 first sentence on the page: "Independent characters are allowed to join other units."

So now we have a quote that tells us the IC joins another unit.

Now lets get to the Shooting at ICs rules; BRB Page 49, first paragraph, second sentence: "Independent characters that have joined a unit are considered part of that unit and so may not be picked out as targets."

So now we have clear rules that the IC cannot be picked out and is a part of the unit.

Now the complex unit rules(since the IC is certainly a different model rules-wise from the standard unit); brb page 25, third paragraph: "Once the number of wounds caused by the firing unit has been determined, the player controlling the target unit must decide which models have been wounded, allocating the wounds to the warriors of their choice. Remember that any model in the unit can be wounded, not just those in range or view."

Ok so we have clear statement that the IC joins the Marked unit.

Lastly we have IC and assaults rules; BRB page 49, IC And Assaults, Second Paragraph, Second sentence: "When the attacks are resolved, however, indepenent characters are always treated as a separate single-model uit(as described under Multiple Combats on page 41), even though they have joined the unit."

Then we have clear rules that firing at the unit includes the IC; who cannot be shot at individually in the unit(but may have forced allocation via special rules).

Then we have the effect of the Deathmarks, mark; which scores wounds on a 2+ against the marked unit.

Finally we have the Wound allocation rules that tell us that nothing is allocated to the target models until the wounds process has occurred .

Quid pro quo: an IC attached to a marked unit is effected by the Mark for shooting; but never for assault. This because the IC is part of the unit when the deathmarks shoot the unit; but the IC is never a part of the marked unit when the deathmarks swing on it in cc.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Lot of text ...

... but no overriding of IC Unit. IC are a unit of one model. They may join other units but they are and always will be their own unit. The only rules that we have are that IC may not be picked out by shooting and they may be by combat.

Page 49 - so they are both a member and a unit?

No, the rules for ICs in combat state they are TREATED AS a separate unit - under your definition they are both a unit and treated as a unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Page 49 - so they are both a member and a unit?

No, the rules for ICs in combat state they are TREATED AS a separate unit - under your definition they are both a unit and treated as a unit.

IC are a unit they are still a unit when they join another unit. Thanks to the rules listed we know they cannot be targeted directly by shooting when they are part of another unit, we also know they are not effected by attacks to the unit in close combat as they are treated as a separate unit.

The rules are entirley redundant if your interpretation were correct.

Wounds cannot flow from one unit to another in CC, as you MUST attack units in combat, not models. So your contention means that "treated as" is in fact an error on GWs part - as they are always a separate unit.

Or, when you are told they are a member of the unit, they are just that - a member. Then you dont have convoluted explanations and redundant rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The rules are entirley redundant if your interpretation were correct.

... Games workshop Writing redundant rules? Never

... but in this case it is an explanation rules on how a IC unit operates while joined to another unit.

Tri, your interpretation paves the way for some stellar sniping with abilities in the shooting phase are are not targeting attacks or abilities that are not considered attacks. Example Blood Lance draws a line through a unit that has an attached IC and touches the IC as well as the unit, by your interpretation not only does the unit take a hit but so does the IC.