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The Grey Knights are distinguished as never having a single of their number fall to chaos. From that then we can conclude that all other chapters have lost individuals to chaos.

Certainly whole chapters have fallen continuously over the millennia and there's a page full of renegade chapters on Lexicanum (most are chaos but some are just rogue). But individuals from all chapters have turned to chaos, including the Blood Angels and even the Ultramarine posterboys that all Space Marines secretly want to be like.

So how often does this happen? Why do they get lured away, they are carefully selected and highly trained, how can it happen and not be observed until too late? Do they always get stopped, or are there rogue marines from all chapters across the universe? Do they all head for the eye of terror or just hang out other places? I don't see why because they become corrupted they would immediately throw in their lot with the traitor legions and make a beeline for the Eye of Terror. It's equally likely that they would do a bunk and end up as mercenaries or slumming it in some bar somewhere out of the way. Do the loyal marines go out of their way to hunt them down like the Dark Angels do the Fallen?

There's all sorts of scenarios and characters that could be created IMO, I'd like to see what people have gathered from the books and general background, or what they think feels right.

There are few places to hide form the Imperium.
Most renegades throw their lot in with chaos because the Eye is (relatively) safe.

They can be corrupted for a number of reasons. They could actually be slowly lured away from their chapter by ideas, I guess, the Astartes are very susceptible to pride. Maybe if they felt they were slighted somehow or suffered indignities they would go rogue. Martial pride is another thing that could draw a Marine away into the realm of someone like Khorne or Slaanesh. Knowledge lust (Thousand Sons, Relictors?, ect) could land you in Tzeentch's domain...Never really got the allure of Nurgle personally.

There's also over exposure to warp contaminants and other things like that to consider. If you ship becomes stranded in the warp and your gellar fields start to fail......You're going to fall victim to the first thing that notices you. This happened to the Death Guard. They got a terrible, terrible array of plagues but weren't allowed to die from them so they basically were forced to Nurgle for salvation.

I think nurgle would be the ability to take any amount of punishment and still keep going, nurgle might not explain that whole disease thing before they sign up

This is a valid question. If you watched the Ultramarine movie, it shed a fairly simple light on this issue. Its more of a humanistic standpoint than anything. It proves the Space Marines, in all their glory, are still humans. That they are suceptable to the whims of humanity, and they are not above it.

I recently watched a movie called "Soldier" with Kurt Russel in it, and it portrayed the mentality of born soldiers. You should check it out, I think it would help shed light on this issue, or at least it did for me. Its on Netflix too, for those of you who have that.

Howard A Treesong wrote:It's equally likely that they would do a bunk and end up as mercenaries or slumming it in some bar somewhere out of the way.

That would definitely happen.

As far as I know the Alpha Legion operates almost entirely in Imperial space.

Also in a novel called Angels of Darkness it shows Fallen Angels just sitting around being pirate lords not really doing anything other than organised crime.
That all gets too boring for one Fallen so he finds himself a planet, starts a rebellion and seats himself as the planets high lord.

Not all traitors immediately start worshiping chaos. Even within the Legions. I'm fairly sure most Night Lords despise the touch of chaos, they just also happen to hate the Imperium.

BrainDeleted wrote:They can be corrupted for a number of reasons. They could actually be slowly lured away from their chapter by ideas, I guess, the Astartes are very susceptible to pride. Maybe if they felt they were slighted somehow or suffered indignities they would go rogue. Martial pride is another thing that could draw a Marine away into the realm of someone like Khorne or Slaanesh. Knowledge lust (Thousand Sons, Relictors?, ect) could land you in Tzeentch's domain...Never really got the allure of Nurgle personally.

There's also over exposure to warp contaminants and other things like that to consider. If you ship becomes stranded in the warp and your gellar fields start to fail......You're going to fall victim to the first thing that notices you. This happened to the Death Guard. They got a terrible, terrible array of plagues but weren't allowed to die from them so they basically were forced to Nurgle for salvation.

The allure of nurgle is just that: that he basically forces you into it. It's the fear of death, or the fear of pain. Most nurgle-ite space marines were put in a position where signing up with him was the only option, alla Darth Vader.

Part of that thought line though, that why do they all go to the Eye and the Maelstrom, is why I find the character Cypher so fascinating. In many ways, he is the only truly good space marine. He carries the sword of his Primarch on a journy of unknown purpose, perhaps to repair it, perhaps as penance, but either way he shows up where he is most needed, similar to the legion of the damned, but not in the sense that he is needed to win a battle. He appears where his unique abilities will improve the lot of those around him, which I think is why the imperium views him so negatively, because often he causes riots to improve the lives of others. They see him as a rogue, but he clearly has very redeeming qualities. I wonder how much of this is the case for rogue chapters like the soul drinkers, how they think they are helping the imperium by going against the strict confines of its laws, how they rebel to aid it. And over time they commit so many injustices they slowly become lost to it.

Never! my Dark Angel will NEVER be traitors!!! NEEEVVVEEEERRRR!!!

LumenPraebeo wrote:Never! my Dark Angel will NEVER be traitors!!! NEEEVVVEEEERRRR!!!

But they were... a long long time ago.

A good story telling why a company goes renegade involves the Avenging Sons in the short story in the aptly name, Renegades

Basically the company is outnumbered and has no hope of survival but rather than throw their lives away for the Emperor, like their Chaplain wants them too, they kill him, trade their safe passage off the planet for the Planetary Governor and go rogue.

So sometimes it's self preservation, other times for power or due to corruption. Sometimes you might be forced into it because you have no other option too, like the Damned Company of Lord Caustos.

Pilau Rice wrote:So sometimes it's self preservation, other times for power or due to corruption. Sometimes you might be forced into it because you have no other option too, like the Damned Company of Lord Caustos.

It seems to me that once a marine placing his own self preservation before his duty to the Emperor then he is already corrupted in some fashion. Nurgle appears to 'turn' people by infecting them with the rot, but surely a loyal Marine would still rather die than serve Nurgle simply to survive. Even when suffering, to turn against the Imperium shows the the rot has affected his mind, IMO.

I disagree with what someone else said, the Imperium is a big place with a lot of places to hide. There are planets that probably never see a Space Marine, a rogue could easily fit in as a mercenary or aid to a governor, particularly one that did not ask questions.

I think the draw to attain perfection in combat is a direct route to korne in this universe and thats what astartes are all about, perfection in combat.

I think the question eventually becomes whats the diffrence between taking better weapons or training more to bet better at combat or using some power bestowed upon me?

Ronin wrote:

LumenPraebeo wrote:Never! my Dark Angel will NEVER be traitors!!! NEEEVVVEEEERRRR!!!

But they were... a long long time ago.

Lies, lies, utter lies, nothing to see here folks, just loyal Space Marines, move along!

purplefood wrote:There are few places to hide form the Imperium.
Most renegades throw their lot in with chaos because the Eye safer than an entire galaxy-spanning empire trying to kill you.

heh, fixed.


More seriously, this issue hasn't really been addressed in the fluff.

Lexicanum lists 55 active renegade chapters. But we must keep in mind that many other warbands are not listed by lexicanum, that the actual size of these warbands is not known, nor is the proportion of marines in those warbands that once fought for the Emperor (on the contrary to the marines that were bred and trained under the gaze of Chaos).

So, answering the propensity of SM to rebel is anyone's guess really. We don't have enough info to put up a definite answer.

Well we know whole chapters turn, bad geneseed and other catastrophic things can happen.

But what can be inferred from the Grey Knights is that all chapters have some individual marines that turn.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:So sometimes it's self preservation, other times for power or due to corruption. Sometimes you might be forced into it because you have no other option too, like the Damned Company of Lord Caustos.

It seems to me that once a marine placing his own self preservation before his duty to the Emperor then he is already corrupted in some fashion. Nurgle appears to 'turn' people by infecting them with the rot, but surely a loyal Marine would still rather die than serve Nurgle simply to survive. Even when suffering, to turn against the Imperium shows the the rot has affected his mind, IMO.

I disagree with what someone else said, the Imperium is a big place with a lot of places to hide. There are planets that probably never see a Space Marine, a rogue could easily fit in as a mercenary or aid to a governor, particularly one that did not ask questions.

i think that first part is pretty true...part of that whole overzealous FOR THE EMPRAH SPEESS MAREENES attitude. But at the same time Space marines still are mortal, and that fear of death can corrupt any...

While you're right that there are plenty of places to hide, the fact that the administratum and the inquisition are so closely tied, and the administratum tithes every planet for IG armies, if he was on an imp world not only would he stand out (being 8 feet tall and all) but eventually the armies of man would come to him essentially. the only safe place to hide would be on one of the planets lost through a calculation error, but those tend to get deleted from the system so he wouldn't know where to find them...

Actually, I came with an idea to find out the propensity of marines to turn traitor, even if this idea is a bit shaky.

So, as I said earlier, I went on lexicanum and counted the renegade chapters listed there. It was fairly easy because there was only 55 of these warbands in lexicanum.

Now, If we could count the number of loyal chapters listed in lexicanum, we could get a rough estimation on the loyal/traitor marine ratio, right?

It depends on individual. If a Single Marine with some kind of power ( Chapter master ) falls to temptation of Chaos all under him are going to follow him ( except for several individuals, but those are executed quickly ).

See Astral Claws for full Chapter and... Salamaders for company, Blood Angels for 2-3 individuals.

Before the latest Codex: Chaos Space Marines like 50 after like 50,000.

Laodamia wrote:Now, If we could count the number of loyal chapters listed in lexicanum, we could get a rough estimation on the loyal/traitor marine ratio, right?

That wouldn't work due to the fact that they have chaos-grown marines that were never loyal to the emperor.

Nom