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So guys, is there ANYWHERE that - not citing abilities - can show there is a real distinction between START OF TURN and START OF MOVEMENT PHASE?

Thanks!!

No, check page 9.

heheh. Way to try to bypass your locals, Kintaro.

Start of turn = start of movement phase as their is no phase before movement at the start of the turn.

pretre wrote:heheh. Way to try to bypass your locals, Kintaro.

Start of turn = start of movement phase as their is no phase before movement at the start of the turn.

Not trying to bypass anyone, nor carry the debate over here - was trying to get opinions without context, or a pointer to where this may be offically documented.

And I'll cite Necron WBB (I know I know - it doesn't exist) as a precedent for Start of Turn. I'll also say that I can start my turn without starting my movement phase

There's no "step" in a turn before the movement phase. So, the "start of turn" takes place during the movement phase and is the same as "start of the movement phase".

kirsanth wrote:No, check page 9.

Sorry, not helpful.


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Grakmar wrote:There's no "step" in a turn before the movement phase. So, the "start of turn" takes place during the movement phase and is the same as "start of the movement phase".

Can you show me where that's documented please?

Kintaro wrote:Can you show me where that's documented please?

kirsanth wrote:page 9

Kintaro wrote:

pretre wrote:heheh. Way to try to bypass your locals, Kintaro.

Start of turn = start of movement phase as their is no phase before movement at the start of the turn.

Not trying to bypass anyone, nor carry the debate over here - was trying to get opinions without context, or a pointer to where this may be offically documented.

And I'll cite Necron WBB (I know I know - it doesn't exist) as a precedent for Start of Turn. I'll also say that I can start my turn without starting my movement phase

I know, I'm F'ing with you.

But seriously, Page 9.

Kintaro wrote:

kirsanth wrote:No, check page 9.

Sorry, not helpful.


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Grakmar wrote:There's no "step" in a turn before the movement phase. So, the "start of turn" takes place during the movement phase and is the same as "start of the movement phase".

Can you show me where that's documented please?

The rules document each player turn as Movement, Shooting, and Assault phases.
The start of a player turn is not a separate phase, so the start of a player turn is equal to the start of the Movement phase.

If you disagree, please cite something that states otherwise.

rigeld2 wrote:

Kintaro wrote:

kirsanth wrote:No, check page 9.

Sorry, not helpful.


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Grakmar wrote:There's no "step" in a turn before the movement phase. So, the "start of turn" takes place during the movement phase and is the same as "start of the movement phase".

Can you show me where that's documented please?

The rules document each player turn as Movement, Shooting, and Assault phases.
The start of a player turn is not a separate phase, so the start of a player turn is equal to the start of the Movement phase.

If you disagree, please cite something that states otherwise.

I disagreed, so i cited you, becuase you yourself pointed out the issue. The movement phase is not the start of the turn, its the first phase of the turn. In a way its the same thing.. but to be technical, no.

It's absolutely the start of the turn.

Player turn:
Movement Phase
Shooting Phase
Assault Phase

Once player one is done with the Assault phase, you move to player two's Movement phase. There's no "extra" phase.

?? login to the wrong account or am I missing where Bla_ze posted previously in this thread?

pretre wrote:?? login to the wrong account or am I missing where Bla_ze posted previously in this thread?

He didn't, he just disagreed and wanted to post that.

Ahh, ESL. Got it.

Reserves come before movement phase.

Smitty0305 wrote:Reserves come before movement phase.

No, they do not.
They occur in the movement phase before other models move.

Smitty0305 wrote:Reserves come before movement phase.

Wrong.

P94. Rolling for Reserves, At the start of each of his movement phases except the first, before moving any unit, the player must roll dice for each of his units in reserve.

Reserves come before movement, not the movement phase.


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Damn, ninja'd

rigeld2 wrote:It's absolutely the start of the turn.

Player turn:
Movement Phase
Shooting Phase
Assault Phase

Once player one is done with the Assault phase, you move to player two's Movement phase. There's no "extra" phase.

I never said there was a extra phase. Your turn starts with the movement phase. Not movement phase is the start if the turn.

Bla_Ze wrote:I never said there was a extra phase. Your turn starts with the movement phase. Not movement phase is the start if the turn.

That... I ... dividing by zero?

Start of the turn is when some psychic powers go off. It happens just before the movement phase and all other things that happen at the beginning of the movement phase - like reserves.

What proof? Space Marine locator beacon says it must be on the board at the "start of the turn" to be used (by reserves). If Start of the turn happens at the start of the movement phase (when reserves move on) then you could always use the homing beacons.

Similarly, an Eldar player could move his farseer on the board and then fortune a squad.

Plus, GW would be wrong in the Chaos Space Marine FAQ (first question)

Q. If a Sorcerer in Terminator armour with a psychic power that works at the beginning of the turn (e.g. Warptime) is deep striking, what takes place first, teleporting in or psychic powers? Or does the owner decide on the order?

A. The psychic power is used ‘at the beginning of the turn’, while the unit deep strikes in the Movement phase, so a deep striking model cannot use Warptime or similar powers in the turn they deep strike.

Who knew lengthy debates about trivial W40k stuff over at warseer would come in handy.....

TL/DR: No, there is no specific definition of "start of turn" or "start of the Movement phase". People generally equate both terms and use the act of moving a unit to end the period know as "the start of the [turn | Movement phase]".

Page 9 defines what a Turn is (two play turns starting with the first play followed by the second player) and what a player turn is (three phases, Movement, Shooting, Assaulting) the sequence of a turn is also defined as specifically the Movement phase followed by the Shooting phase followed by the Assault phase.

Page 11 defines what happens in the Movement phase. The important fact to note is the Movement phase in not reduced any further, i.e., there are no other steps are sub-phases to the Movement phase.

These definitions are usually sufficient for most game play. It becomes an issue, however, when rules reference the nebulous period of time known as "the start of the turn" (famously used in the Eldar codex) or "the start of the Movement phase" (just about any recent codex or rule book). It's an issue as the duration of these periods of time are not defined and we're left to our own devices to define them.

So, taking the rules at face value, the "start of the turn" is defined on page 9 as the Movement phase, the entire Movement phase. Yep. The rules only specify the three phases and the order of these phases. The play starts his turn in the Movement phase, followed by the Shooting phase, ending with the Assault phase. Many will argue this point (violently) but the rules only define the turn as composing of the three phases starting with the Movement phase.

To add some confusion, the BRB and several codices reference the period of time know as "the start of the Movement phase" (TSOTMP). The confusion arises on two fronts: 1) does TSOTMP equate to "the start of the turn", and 2) what is the duration of TSOTMP? TSOTMP is different to "the start of the turn". As noted above, the rules define the start of the turn as the (entire) Movement phase, while TSOTMP is a shorter period of time limited to the beginning of the Movement phase. And there in lies the big rub, just what is the duration of TSOTMP? The rules do not define it. However, general consensus is all action leading up to moving a unit constitutes TSOTMP. No, there is no page to reference but it does simplify the game play.

Even though the start of the turn and TSOTMP are two different things, it simplifies game play by equating the two terms.

To muddle the discussion further, there is no precedence to the order of multiple actions being performed at TSOTMP. Nothing states Reserve rolls must be performed first or that the use of powers occur prior to Reserve rolls. Unless the rule specifically states otherwise, the player is left to determine which order action performed at TSOTMP occur. Thus, a Farseer could Fortune a unit that arrived from Reserves, for example.

Speaking of a Farseer, since the start of the turn is the Movement phase (see above), it's technically possible for the Farseer to move THEN use a power. However, attempting such action on any table beyond mind will be hotly contested. Best stick to the notion all actions performed at TSOTMP or the start of the turn occur prior to moving a unit.




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ryan3740 wrote:Start of the turn is when some psychic powers go off. It happens just before the movement phase and all other things that happen at the beginning of the movement phase - like reserves.

There is no such thing as "just before the movement phase". Further, Reserves specifically states it happens IN the movement phase.

kirsanth wrote:

Kintaro wrote:Can you show me where that's documented please?

kirsanth wrote:page 9

Sorry, again not helping. There's nothing there about start of turn, despite the fact that we have abilities that happen at that time.


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pretre wrote:

Kintaro wrote:

pretre wrote:heheh. Way to try to bypass your locals, Kintaro.

Start of turn = start of movement phase as their is no phase before movement at the start of the turn.

Not trying to bypass anyone, nor carry the debate over here - was trying to get opinions without context, or a pointer to where this may be offically documented.

And I'll cite Necron WBB (I know I know - it doesn't exist) as a precedent for Start of Turn. I'll also say that I can start my turn without starting my movement phase

I know, I'm F'ing with you.

But seriously, Page 9.

LOL!!

Jerk.... ><;


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rigeld2 wrote:

Kintaro wrote:

kirsanth wrote:No, check page 9.

Sorry, not helpful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grakmar wrote:There's no "step" in a turn before the movement phase. So, the "start of turn" takes place during the movement phase and is the same as "start of the movement phase".

Can you show me where that's documented please?

The rules document each player turn as Movement, Shooting, and Assault phases.
The start of a player turn is not a separate phase, so the start of a player turn is equal to the start of the Movement phase.

If you disagree, please cite something that states otherwise.

Necrons WBB - your turn. Please state something to back up what YOU're saying


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ryan3740 wrote:Start of the turn is when some psychic powers go off. It happens just before the movement phase and all other things that happen at the beginning of the movement phase - like reserves.

What proof? Space Marine locator beacon says it must be on the board at the "start of the turn" to be used (by reserves). If Start of the turn happens at the start of the movement phase (when reserves move on) then you could always use the homing beacons.

Similarly, an Eldar player could move his farseer on the board and then fortune a squad.

Plus, GW would be wrong in the Chaos Space Marine FAQ (first question)

Q. If a Sorcerer in Terminator armour with a psychic power that works at the beginning of the turn (e.g. Warptime) is deep striking, what takes place first, teleporting in or psychic powers? Or does the owner decide on the order?

A. The psychic power is used ‘at the beginning of the turn’, while the unit deep strikes in the Movement phase, so a deep striking model cannot use Warptime or similar powers in the turn they deep strike.

Uhoh...this.

Thanks man!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Who knew lengthy debates about trivial W40k stuff over at warseer would come in handy.....

TL/DR: No, there is no specific definition of "start of turn" or "start of the Movement phase". People generally equate both terms and use the act of moving a unit to end the period know as "the start of the [turn | Movement phase]".

Page 9 defines what a Turn is (two play turns starting with the first play followed by the second player) and what a player turn is (three phases, Movement, Shooting, Assaulting) the sequence of a turn is also defined as specifically the Movement phase followed by the Shooting phase followed by the Assault phase.

Page 11 defines what happens in the Movement phase. The important fact to note is the Movement phase in not reduced any further, i.e., there are no other steps are sub-phases to the Movement phase.

These definitions are usually sufficient for most game play. It becomes an issue, however, when rules reference the nebulous period of time known as "the start of the turn" (famously used in the Eldar codex) or "the start of the Movement phase" (just about any recent codex or rule book). It's an issue as the duration of these periods of time are not defined and we're left to our own devices to define them.

So, taking the rules at face value, the "start of the turn" is defined on page 9 as the Movement phase, the entire Movement phase. Yep. The rules only specify the three phases and the order of these phases. The play starts his turn in the Movement phase, followed by the Shooting phase, ending with the Assault phase. Many will argue this point (violently) but the rules only define the turn as composing of the three phases starting with the Movement phase.

To add some confusion, the BRB and several codices reference the period of time know as "the start of the Movement phase" (TSOTMP). The confusion arises on two fronts: 1) does TSOTMP equate to "the start of the turn", and 2) what is the duration of TSOTMP? TSOTMP is different to "the start of the turn". As noted above, the rules define the start of the turn as the (entire) Movement phase, while TSOTMP is a shorter period of time limited to the beginning of the Movement phase. And there in lies the big rub, just what is the duration of TSOTMP? The rules do not define it. However, general consensus is all action leading up to moving a unit constitutes TSOTMP. No, there is no page to reference but it does simplify the game play.

Even though the start of the turn and TSOTMP are two different things, it simplifies game play by equating the two terms.

To muddle the discussion further, there is no precedence to the order of multiple actions being performed at TSOTMP. Nothing states Reserve rolls must be performed first or that the use of powers occur prior to Reserve rolls. Unless the rule specifically states otherwise, the player is left to determine which order action performed at TSOTMP occur. Thus, a Farseer could Fortune a unit that arrived from Reserves, for example.

Speaking of a Farseer, since the start of the turn is the Movement phase (see above), it's technically possible for the Farseer to move THEN use a power. However, attempting such action on any table beyond mind will be hotly contested. Best stick to the notion all actions performed at TSOTMP or the start of the turn occur prior to moving a unit.




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ryan3740 wrote:Start of the turn is when some psychic powers go off. It happens just before the movement phase and all other things that happen at the beginning of the movement phase - like reserves.

There is no such thing as "just before the movement phase". Further, Reserves specifically states it happens IN the movement phase.

Aw man...I was gonna reply to one part, then you started making my argument for me, then switched back! LOL!!

I figured that, like over at my local, everyone sort of agrees they are both the same, since they are not clearly defined as either the same or separate in the RB. I don't know what to think, but wanted a consensus. There's been some great points either way.

I'mma call GW tomorrow. Also email the faq addy


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BTW thanks everybody!!

Kintaro wrote:I'mma call GW tomorrow. Also email the faq addy

BTW thanks everybody!!

Either call/e-mail at three different times and get three different answers.

Or

Save yourself the trouble and do not call/E-mail because you will get three different answers.

I play with there being a difference between start of the turn and start of movement.

In sorts there are several times where start of turn is stated, opposed to start of movement.

Eldar Psychic powers are a big one imo. Locator beacon was a good one, It also applies to to Tyranid Synapse IIRC.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:I play with there being a difference between start of the turn and start of movement.

In sorts there are several times where start of turn is stated, opposed to start of movement.

Eldar Psychic powers are a big one imo. Locator beacon was a good one, It also applies to to Tyranid Synapse IIRC.

There is a difference between start of turn and start of movement, but not start of movement phase.

All of those things you mentioned happen during the movement phase, before movement. Just like reserves.

pretre wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:I
All of those things you mentioned happen during the movement phase, before movement. Just like reserves.

And there's the rub, only Reserves mention it happens prior to moving units. The others just mention the start of the turn or start of the Movement phase and there is no clear definition of the duration of either.