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I'm making my list for a British paratrooper list and was thinking of what to use against tanks. So i've decided to either take a heavy AT platoon or would I fair fine with just the 6 pdr. What would be the better option dakka?

17pdrs have a fault in that they cannot be concealed out in the open if dug in due to the Heavy and Immobile gun rules. But they're powerful guns regardless that has just enough AT to make German heavy armor think twice about exposing themselves to it.

6pdrs you will mainly be using alongside an infantry platoon to prevent a tank assault, mixing in with the platoon, dug in, and firing during defensive fire. Although you can still use the 6pdrs to fire at light vehicles and medium tanks for decent effect. Panzer 4s, Halftracks, other Shermans, T34s are still threatened by 6pdrs.

17pdrs seem best used by placing them in ambush if there's heavy tanks and your mission has an ambush.

Can the 6pdrs do noticeable damage to the Panzers and T-34s?

They have enough of an AT rating to punch through the front of Panzer IVs and T-34s, but it's not reliable. On a full volley, you'll probably kill 1-2 and bail 1-2 of a 5 tank unit of medium tanks through the front.

So it's enough to make any medium tanks think about facing them, not enough to be a complete deterrent.

Then factor in smoke and such, and your opponent will probably get the first full turn of shooting at them, so keeping the guns Gone to Ground is a good idea.

What makes them really worth it is the RoF3. In late war they get HE rounds, which means you can use the platoon not just as AT, but almost like a machinegun platoon, with 4 guns pumping out 12 shots at enemy infantry.

Also, as Paras, all your rifle/mg teams have Gammon Bombs, making them much more deadly against tanks when assaulting or assaulted.

Good thing about the HE rounds because that's the era my Paras will be. Market Garden is considered late correct?

Vertrucio wrote:Then factor in smoke and such, and your opponent will probably get the first full turn of shooting at them, so keeping the guns Gone to Ground is a good idea.

No probably about it. Keep in mind that tanks in any era but EW always outrange any guns that aren't heavy AA. Your guns have a 24" range. Your tanks have a 32" range. The only exceptions are the heavy AA with their 40" range, and a couple of German tanks that have the same range. So if he's got the LoS at range, your opponent can sit his tanks out of range of your AT and pick them off.

The only way that you're going to get the first shot with AT guns is if you either ambush your opponent, or give your opponent something more enticing to shoot at.

But as long as i distract them, they're good?

I think the question you have to ask is this: Are you going to face Tigers/Pathers or StuGs and Panzer IVs? If you think the Big Cats, 17pdrs will be better -- otherwise, the 6pdrs are pretty cheap and are good for all the reasons listed above.

If you are playing out of Market-Garden and take John Dutton Frost, he can help you keep the gun teams alive with 'Man the Guns' special rule.

I find that 17pdrs need to be in woods to be effective. That makes them 5+ to hit and if Gone to Ground, you need to be within 16" to have any chance at all (4+ Vet, +1 Range, +1 Concealed, +1 GTG). In this case, the 17 pdrs can open up at optimal range and be effective. You will likely only get 1 chance with them to take anything out. However, be aware that them dictating movement is valuable -- the can 'be successful' without firing a shot.

Good luck!

I am doing Market Garden which most of my armies are. I was looking at Frost also, so he sounds like a good choice. Since my army is Mid War Brits, it will most likely be panzers and tigers.

As dirty jon said, a pair of 17pdrs concealed, is a difficult problem to deal with especially if placed on a flank, or dominating a position.

This is because most players will seek to avoid hitting them head on with anything but infantry. This means you can funnel enemy forces into kill zones, but if an Enemy commits to neutralising the pair of 17pdrs they will be wasting effort and units trying to get at them leaving you free to attack in return or out manoeuvre your enemy.

A very powerful unit, not because it can kill, but because it forces your enemy to change his plans. Exactly like a Tiger 1E does to the Allies. Killing things isn't everything, it helps but it is not the be all and end all of FOW.

mwnciboo wrote:A very powerful unit, not because it can kill, but because it forces your enemy to change his plans. Exactly like a Tiger 1E does to the Allies. Killing things isn't everything, it helps but it is not the be all and end all of FOW.

As with every other scary unit though, you can often just ignore them or isolate them and not worry about them at all. That is how many allies deal with a Tiger 1e showing up in MW. If the tiger has no impact on the battle it may as well not have been their in the first place.

17pdrs are definitely good to keep an opponent honest. You will probably get much more mileage with your dug in fearless, veteran infantry keeping the opponent from achieving their goals than with the 17pdrs, but they are nice to have. Also some of the Market Garden lists will allow you to have 2 17pdr platoons which is just bad news for german armor. About the only thing you get for 17pdrs with respect to digging in is the bullet proof cover to require a fire power test to destroy them. Yes they have gunshields, but being dug in covers them from every direction and not just the front. Every little bit helps, though.

Skriker

However, I agree you can occassionally ignore them. But clever placement, say on the route to an objective forces them into i, do nothing lose game ii, Assault or otherwise neutralise them iii,Ignore them drive for the objective and take the casualties. i, is a none starter which puts the enemy player on COurse of Action ii, or iii, and he will become distracted to the wider battle. Recon Forces are useful in this scenario.

mwnciboo wrote:However, I agree you can occassionally ignore them. But clever placement, say on the route to an objective forces them into i, do nothing lose game ii, Assault or otherwise neutralise them iii,Ignore them drive for the objective and take the casualties. i, is a none starter which puts the enemy player on COurse of Action ii, or iii, and he will become distracted to the wider battle. Recon Forces are useful in this scenario.

What if they decide to go after the other objective instead?

Well, you know his whole force is heading that way now, and you can maneouvre to engage his forces. Reducing his Courses of Action is always a good thing to do, because actively or passively you are controlling the battlefield.

I've said this befoe in other posts mostly concerning arty but it still applies here. My rule of thumb when choosing a unit type is to pay the points for the unit rhat is most likely to kill things. While some armor may think twice about approaching 6 pounders all armor will think twice about 17 pounders. There is no perfect solution to all the situations you may face such as your opponent just ignoring them. You just need to asses the scenario you're playing and use them accordingly. I use 88's quite often which are similar to the 17 pounders. I find they are best placed in cover, dug in, and centralized on the board in most situations. This is just MHO and what has worked best for me in reguards to useing AT assets. One last point. Always give them trucks. Why? If they have to come in from off table with no transport th ey will be stuck at the table edge and then be really useless lol.