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This topic was/is discussed in a thread posted on Warseer. See http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=323585

I had my thoughts on it but don't have an account there nor do I want to start one. Plus, I figured the Dakka community may want to weigh in.

So how would you fix the normal, blue collar space marine?

In warseer, some suggest allowing two specials instead of the heavies, others suggest relentless or the option to use slow & purposeful during any turn. Obvioulsy people don't like the lack of focus and difficulty of using the heavy. Some respond by saying "look, they are meant to combat squad, that is how they play so stop fighting it." That may be true but that does not obviate the need for a change to make them worth their points compared to the SW and BA dex. I suggest a different change.

I suggest a change to how combat squads work in the C:SM. Allow combat squads to mix and mingle throughout the game. Two seperate units that may ride in a rhino together, that may deploy in a drop pod together. Essentially the combat squads which result from one FOC slot should be permitted to share transports throughout the game. This would be a huge boon to the tactical marine and would not involve tinkering with too many USRs or weapon profiles and maintains the uniqueness of the unit.

For me, just give them CCW, Bolters and Bolt Pistols.

infinite_array wrote:For me, just give them CCW, Bolters and Bolt Pistols.

That would rock! Scoring assault marines with an additional bolter.

The Space Wolves Codex let's them take 2 special weapons but no heavy, right?

I'd like the option of 2 special weapons, or 1 special and 1 heavy. That would make them much more useful.

kronk wrote:

infinite_array wrote:For me, just give them CCW, Bolters and Bolt Pistols.

That would rock! Scoring assault marines with an additional bolter.

The Space Wolves Codex let's them take 2 special weapons but no heavy, right?

I'd like the option of 2 special weapons, or 1 special and 1 heavy. That would make them much more useful.

Or take special weapons in a 5 man squad.

EDIT: Wait isn't that just SW?

I made this point on another forum (can't remember which but not here from past post review) and basically got shouted down, but what I said was I'd quite happily pay the cost for taking an extra special weapon over a heavy or the base points plus 20 for taking the extra special weapon in a tac squad.

Philld77 wrote:I made this point on another forum (can't remember which but not here from past post review) and basically got shouted down, but what I said was I'd quite happily pay the cost for taking an extra special weapon over a heavy or the base points plus 20 for taking the extra special weapon in a tac squad.

So wait, you're saying that you'd take

tac squad - 170 pts
+ say 5 pts for the meltagun
+ 20 for add'l meltagun
for a total of 195 pts

when SW pay 155 points for the same thing?

I think the heavy/special limitation gives the Tacs flavor even though it is less than efficeint.

Besides my original thoughts on combat squad rules I also think they should get the BG/BP/CC combo for an extra attack. Then they would be perfect at their current points for the next codex update.

Mustela wrote:
So wait, you're saying that you'd take

tac squad - 170 pts
+ say 5 pts for the meltagun
+ 20 for add'l meltagun
for a total of 195 pts

when SW pay 155 points for the same thing?

I didn't say I had it down on exact details, but I certainly didn't know SW players had it that easy, in that case why no equivalent bonus for SM players then?

Philld77 wrote:

Mustela wrote:
So wait, you're saying that you'd take

tac squad - 170 pts
+ say 5 pts for the meltagun
+ 20 for add'l meltagun
for a total of 195 pts

when SW pay 155 points for the same thing?

I didn't say I had it down on exact details, but I certainly didn't know SW players had it that easy, in that case why no equivalent bonus for SM players then?

Nobody knows. That is what this thread is about.

When I first got into warhammer like 10-15 years ago, tactical squads were the bread and butter. They were true super-humans, excelling in all aspects of warfare.
Now it's all about the vehicles and small specialised squads.

Two attacks on the charge is simply pitiful.

Tactical marines should not be Grey Hunters. After the string of codex creep from the other space marine books they do need a little boost, but not by giving them a CCW and removing the special weapon restriction. Otherwise you end up with the same cheap MSU razorback spam lists that's get abused in the Space Wolves codex.

Luke_Prowler wrote:Tactical marines should not be Grey Hunters. After the string of codex creep from the other space marine books they do need a little boost, but not by giving them a CCW and removing the special weapon restriction. Otherwise you end up with the same cheap MSU razorback spam lists that's get abused in the Space Wolves codex.

And BT, and GK, and BA, and Vanilla..........

This problem, and MANY others would be solved, if they consolidated all space marines, into one codex. From there, have SC and HQs that have army wide buffs that allow one to play their army as a chapter specific build. IF your a SW player, then your HQ/SC can change certain things in the army make up and so on, to allow the SM force to be SW. Same with BA and so on. Have a biker HQ or SC that you could play a white scars style army with ease.

Granted that wont ever happen, because they make more money, shelling out 57 different SM army codices for every edition

Mustela wrote:

Philld77 wrote:

Mustela wrote:
So wait, you're saying that you'd take

tac squad - 170 pts
+ say 5 pts for the meltagun
+ 20 for add'l meltagun
for a total of 195 pts

when SW pay 155 points for the same thing?

I didn't say I had it down on exact details, but I certainly didn't know SW players had it that easy, in that case why no equivalent bonus for SM players then?

Nobody knows. That is what this thread is about.

We do know. That's one of the things that makes grey hunters unique. The flip side of that coin is that they get no heavy weapons.

KingCracker wrote:This problem, and MANY others would be solved, if they consolidated all space marines, into one codex. From there, have SC and HQs that have army wide buffs that allow one to play their army as a chapter specific build. IF your a SW player, then your HQ/SC can change certain things in the army make up and so on, to allow the SM force to be SW. Same with BA and so on. Have a biker HQ or SC that you could play a white scars style army with ease.

Granted that wont ever happen, because they make more money, shelling out 57 different SM army codices for every edition

[British accent]Oh now don't start THAT again.[/accent]

KingCracker wrote:This problem, and MANY others would be solved, if they consolidated all space marines, into one codex. From there, have SC and HQs that have army wide buffs that allow one to play their army as a chapter specific build.

While I generally agree that Codex: All Space Marines would be great for balance, I'm not terribly keen on using HQs to unlock army styles. Sure, having a Captain on a bike makes reasonable sense for a biker list, but what if you don't want a Captain, at all? What about players who want to keep their Imperial Fists army uniform (in both play and fluff, i.e. keeping Stubborn) at any point level? In smaller games, 1/4 to 1/5 of their list has to go to Lysander, or they go from playing Imperial Fists to yellow-tinted vanilla.

What I want to see is a new and improved version of the old trait system - it makes you weigh pros and cons to get a force that feels and plays right for your chapter, but it operates independently of points (at least, prior to list-building, but a trait that discounted a certain unit or piece of wargear isn't the issue, here). Chapter-specific ICs that currently grant Chapter Tactics could have their price dropped to compensate, maintaining their beefy stats, fancy wargear, and personal special rules, but only costing as much more than a generic Captain/Chap/Libby as those things warrant (e.g. Lysander drops a few points, but Chaplain Cassius stays the same). A wide array of (balanced) traits could "fix" a number of sub-par units/builds while limiting the number of bonuses the more "broken" armies could take at once.

The problem with tactical squads isn't their codex entry, it's that 5th ed blaitently favours MSU mech and SW/BA/GK/DE play that game better than anyone else does...

- Space puppies have always been an OTT army because they're loyalists with the perks of fighting like chaos marines. That said, they've always spamed 'the best' special weapon option because of their lack of reliable heavy weapons... (seriously, you can't deal with a dev squad that has 0 ablaitive wounds?!!)
In 5th ed, it's simply become 'melta fest', but in 4th ed it was actually 'plasma fest' while 3rd was a mix of plasma/melta.

- Blood angels play the game better than puppies because Ward gave assault squads the option for a meltagun AND let them take 'free' ass-can upgraded razorbacks in place of jump packs. The he made those razorbacks into 'fast vehicles' just to make sure they'd trump the puppies. (so now BA's in effect have non-rapid firing grey hunters)

- Dark eldar can abuse venoms, but at the end of the day, you only really need to sneeze at them to kill them. They're the ultimite 'alpha strike' army and if their dice suck when they hit first, well, it'll be a fun time for their opponent at least!

- GK's broke the system because you can't counter their MSU mech builds by stun-locking them. The fact that they can also abuse purifyers & psyfleman dreads is just icing on the cake.



Because competitive play seems like the norm now, it's easy to see why the humble tactical squad looks like utter tash. Overall, I find that tactical squads are pretty damn balanced and quite flexable because you can play both the 'sit and suppress' and the 'MSU mech' at the same time.
Problem is, tactical marines are priced right for the game, they've just been one-up'ed by the other big 4 offenders.