Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Just got the book, working on my first list prior to purchasing models. I have a couple of questions:

1. Ambush, how effective is it?
--1b. If I want to ambush 2 small units of ungor raiders, do I have to have 2 units of Ungor raiders to deploy?
--1c. If I want to ambush 2 units of Ungors does that mean I have to have 4 units of Ungors? or can I just have 3?

2. Special Characters, which are worth it?
--Gorthor
--Malagor
--Ghorros
--Morghur
--Taurox
--Moonclaw
--Ungrol
--Slugtongue
--Krazrak

3. Rare's, any of them worth testing?

4. Centigors, are they worth it?

I will post an army list here in a bit.

Thanks.

Grix.

1) I've never had much luck with it myself, but others swear by it.
1b&c) for each unit that you want to ambush you need another unit of the same type of equal or greater size to deploy as normal... ergo if you want to ambush 2 small units of raiders you need to normally deploy 2 other small units of raiders. Same goes for the normal Ungors and Gors. Page 33 of the army book explains it all quite clearly, really.

2) Never used them myself, not my thing, so I've no idea

3) Not really, no... people have tried time and time again to make them work... closest they've come is the Cygor I guess.

4) They're not the best of units but then they're not the worst... YMMV I guess.

1. Ambush is generally a very bad option for us. Extremely unreliable, and isn't terribly effective when it does work. Generally only used for getting Raiders into War Machines, and even then its only because they're so cheap- never expect it to actually be productive.
b- Yes. You cannot ambush a unit unless you deploy another unit of the same type, and at least equal size.
c- 4 units. You need to match each Ambusher with at least 1 deployed unit.

2. Slugtongue is genuinely a good choice, depending on your regular opponents. If they like War Machines or Knights, hes a godsend. If they play hordes, he's a bit rubbish. Malagor, Khazrak and Taurox are passable, though expensive. Only use them if you have a plan, or just really like them.
Ghorros is fun if you want to play a Centigor army. Its a totally unique army (and very, very hard to get used to) and so if you want Centigor instead of the usual hordes, he's your only option. Take him for the list opportunities rather than game-benefit.
Gorthor, Morghur, Moonclaw and Ungrol are all rubbish unfortunately, being overpriced, inferior to the regular guys or generally useless.

3. Unfortunately not, the Beastman Rare slot is a bit infamous. Spawn are passable but totally unncecessary, and everybody already knows about Giants.
Ghorgons are the best unique monster, with the main issue being his glaring point cost. If you don't mind a little handicap he can be fun as a beatstick.
Cygor are dire, essentially being a 275pt catapult. His anti-magic abilities will rarely come into play and he can't fight for toffee.
Jabber is somehow even worse, with a collection of completely unrelated, unreliable abilities and pathetic fighting / defensive stats.

4. Centigors can be fun, but are very hard to use. They hit staggeringly hard but cannot take a punch at all, and suffer from the usual cavalry problems in 8th. Generally limited to hunting smaller units as a result, and even then Razorgor are better. The Ghorros list is brilliant fun though, and as I said they hit *hard*. They just don't deal with return very well.

Beastmen special characters are all fairly overpriced and most people say the same thing about their rare choices.

Unnamed beastlords and bray-shamans are both much more cost effective choices.

Iv always thought that Taurox sounded pretty cool tho and despite that fact that one attack can potentially kill him, fluff wise, I actually really like his special rule.

Thanks for the replies guys, another question I have is can Beastmen get by without having a Lv3 or Lv4 caster?

In general, having a high level caster is good for shutting down enemy casters. It's not strictly necessary, especially at lower points where high level casters are rarer to begin with, but being without means that you're burning more dispel dice and thus letting more spells through.

One alternate option is to get a level 2 and give them the +1 to dispel attempts arcane item.

We can, but its normally a good idea to take him anyway. Having a Great Beast Shaman turns our infantry from 'good' to 'brutal' if you can get the Wildform on them. Hes also fairly fighty, so he can act as a General as well.

However, what you will absolutely need is 2-4 L1 Shadow Shamans, and a Herdstone for them to dance around! Its surprisingly cheap and is a cornerstone of Beastman tactics. Chucking out multiple Miasmas every turn is extremely effective and can tip critical fights, as well as grinding out magic defence and being low risk.


Typical Beastman character layout:
Lord with the Crown of Command. Every race loves this, and we are no exception. Either Beastlord or Great Shaman work here, but the Shaman has more utility.
2-4 L1 Shadow Shaman, with the Herdstone. Miasma spam with 12 dice every turn!
Wargor with Battle Standard. Beast Banner is very popular (+1 Strength) but you also see Manbane (-1 Ld) from time to time.

Throw in the odd Minotaur, or both Lords, and you can have a lot of fun.

Minobus is viable and effective but you really lose out on other necessities, GB+Beastlord+Wargor/Beast Banner combo, add in some herdstone spam and you're solid. 40-50 Gor and 40-50 bestigor. Beastmen work around primal fury which requires a Beastlord (or GBS) in a unit of Bestigor with Standard of Discipline giving your 2 hordes less then a 5% chance of failing Primal Fury. Beast Banner with the Gor gives them S4 as S3 is lackluster, while Bestigor are at a huge S6! GBS and shaman around herdstone give you on average 10-12 power dice which you use for buffing and debuffing allowing your above average troops to be even better and hit the enemy harder.

Minobus loses out on the tools that make the army work but you throw a killer doombull and 2 gorebulls in the front line and enemies are trying to hit WS5 T5 models that are likely striking first with D3 impact hits then stomping while getting 9 S5-S7 (beast banner) supporting attacks.

Great questions and great answers. Very informative!

Good to see more Beastmen players around.

1B : Ambush works just fine for me, I normaly employ Ungors for this purpose since hey are cheap and work okay in this role. Yes you need a unit of Ungos on the tabel if you gonna ambush with one, same goes for Gors
1C : Yes you need four units of Ungors if you are gonna ambush 2 of them.

2.
Gorthor is a absolut beast if used correctly, just remeber to hide him from cannons

Malagor is also very nice, I normaly use him in my 1500+ games

Kazarak One Eye is a definit must if you plan on using ambush in large scale.

I have had mixed luck with Taurox, he works if you put him in a minotaur unit. he also works well alone, althou he is a bit vunerabel at times

3. Of the rares only the Ghorgon is worh using, the rest is complet crapp.

4. Yes and no, run them at your own peril. they can work wonderful and they can fail very hard

I only use ambush on my Ungor Raiders. They work pretty good at picking off warmachine crews and harassing blocks of core.


The Giant and the Ghorgon are the best rares. I have yet to use the former, and -will- purchase the new model when it comes out. The Ghorgon is a all around beast. It can regenerate wounds.

The giant for all you pay for is not bad at all, my giant usually dies from ranged fire, but when he does get in close things suffer and die. And at the end of the day. All my opponent did was not shoot at the 60+ Gors coming his way.

I have however, long since put the points that went into my giant in my 1500 point list with a Beastlord.

This thread is really informative, keep it up guys!
I had never really heard about the Herdstone tactic before, but I migth try it out if I keep loosing after getting the models for 2K point games.
The solid units in the BM book is mostly the core and some of the special choices, with the major exception of Centigors. Centigors will hit very hard, especially with Ghorros Warhoof leading them, but only if they ever get to strike. If you are unlucky and roll the drunken result where they keep their I2, the opponent will kill most of your unit before they get to strike at anything, almost no matter who you charge, as Centigors are really squishy with only T4, W1, 4+ save with no parry at 25 points a piece!
Otherwise, all of the standard non-named hero and lord choices are solid if you give them the right gear and stick them with the right guys.

Bonde wrote:This thread is really informative, keep it up guys!
I had never really heard about the Herdstone tactic before, but I migth try it out if I keep loosing after getting the models for 2K point games.
The solid units in the BM book is mostly the core and some of the special choices, with the major exception of Centigors. Centigors will hit very hard, especially with Ghorros Warhoof leading them, but only if they ever get to strike. If you are unlucky and roll the drunken result where they keep their I2, the opponent will kill most of your unit before they get to strike at anything, almost no matter who you charge, as Centigors are really squishy with only T4, W1, 4+ save with no parry at 25 points a piece!
Otherwise, all of the standard non-named hero and lord choices are solid if you give them the right gear and stick them with the right guys.

I have to agree with you here. The only truly poor choice in Specials is Centigors. I keep trying to make Centigor themed lists, but the only one I even remotely liked was a Horde of Minotaurs with about 5 groups of 5 centigors to combi-charge so you can actually run people down if they try to flee. And even then, I think a Razorgor chariot or a pair of Razorgors probably do it better...If only they were ~18 points per.

In regards to being competative, what is more effective?

Ungor/Gor and Bestigor's, rounded off with a few units of chaff, a Beastlord, Lv4 and Herdstone humping BS's.

or

Doombull, GBS, 2xGorebulls leading a Minotaur bus supported by Gor/Bestigor's and chaff.



Which do you feel is more competative in larger tournament settings?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or is it possible to add a mixture of them both?

The former is probably more competitive. The latter, while hard hitting is going to be prone to some horrible frenzied overruns of only D6".

Another good tactic I have heard about is using the very cheap but fast warhounds to charge into the same combat as minotaurs, thereby ullitizing the warhounds greater speed to overrun the broken units.

Grix wrote:Thanks for the replies guys, another question I have is can Beastmen get by without having a Lv3 or Lv4 caster?

Yes at 2250 and no magic:

Doombull on magic carpet with charmed shield, 2+ armour save, sword of swift striking
Gorebull BSB with 4+ ward save, great weapon
Gorebull with 4+ ward save, great weapon
2 x 37 Ungor with full command (gorebulls go here)
3x 5 ungor raiders
2 Razorgor Chariots
2 Tuskgor Chariots
Chaos Spawn
2 x 5 Warhounds
2 x 5 Harpies
5 Ungor Skirmishers
Ghorgon


So lots of early spam deployments and redirectors.

Harpies hunt skirmishers and warmachines.

The 4 chariots and the doombull flying and the ghorgon are the hammers for combo charging

The massive steadfast ungor units are there as anvils.

Sure the enemy will kill 1 or 2 hammers by time get to combat, but they will all be massed ready for combo chrging.

beats the boredom of a mage spam beast list...

I run -a- Shaman in my 1500 point list. And honestly I would given 750 more points just upgrade him, and take a Ghorgon instead of a giant, and a nice big unit of Bestigors or Minotaurs.

I agree with the Immortal one, Ungors are absolut Language - Edited by Waaagh_Gonads in comabt and dont live long enough to serve their purpose either, I would run 30+ blocks of gors with additional handweapons and trow the Gorebull into that formation. And the giant is nice but you really need two of them to make them work

Trondheim wrote:I agree with the Immortal one, Ungors are absolut shitt in comabt and dont live long enough to serve their purpose either, I would run 30+ blocks of gors with additional handweapons and trow the Gorebull into that formation. And the giant is nice but you really need two of them to make them work

Isn't their a compatability issue with a Doombull/Gorebull in a Gor unit because of base sizes?

Uhh no not really, you just arrage the unit so it fits. And use large movement trayes

Trondheim wrote:Uhh no not really, you just arrage the unit so it fits. And use large movement trayes

Perhaps you mean the same thing, but just to clarify; the Gorebulls/Doombulls would have to stick out the side of the formation of Gors (40mm bases don't quite fit in with 25mm Bases). They also would not be able to make way into combat for the same reason. Also, they would never count for purposes of filling in ranks

This is why you would use ungors: they have 20mm bases, and none of the above-mentioned restrictions apply. If you have your ungors set up 6 wide by 5 deep, you can actually get 7 ranks with three Gorebulls in the front rank.

I would quote you the page in the BRB that states all this, but I don't have it handy, sorry.

Ungor's aren't terrible. Their the Goblin as to the Orc Boy that is a Gor.

I'm partial to Gor's. Cooler model, and can get down and sluggin' Ungor's if you ran them ten by five. Roughly 300 points with a Bray Shaman lvl one with lore of beasts would be a great tarpit, and a little extra magic defense.

As I mainly fight DE.

Immortal Child wrote:Ungor's aren't terrible. Their the Goblin as to the Orc Boy that is a Gor.

I'm partial to Gor's. Cooler model, and can get down and sluggin' Ungor's if you ran them ten by five. Roughly 300 points with a Bray Shaman lvl one with lore of beasts would be a great tarpit, and a little extra magic defense.

As I mainly fight DE.

I love Gors personally. Also, if you buy several Battalions (as I did), you end up with way more Gors than Ungors anyways. I do agree that Ungors are pretty much the only option we have for tarpitting...just don't forget to give that Shaman a ward of some sort, or he won't last too long.

Hmmmm

Yeah, my total army is two batallions and roughly half a dozen separate kits.

They should almost swap it so it's twenty ungors and ten gors- But hey. It's the hand you're dealt.

The thing about Orcs and Goblins is that the Night Goblins are really only good for steadfast, which Ungors can do, and delivering hard-hitting fanatics, which Ungors lack.

IMHO, Ungors should only exist in 5 man raider units. They're great models, but even units of 40+ only really provide characters with a mediocre bunker that the Gors could have provided instead.

I agree on the Ungors should be limited to raiders only, I prefer to run a Ungor free army, and when Gors are above avarge in CC I rathe rpay a bit more and get more in return for my investments