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A buddy of mine was talking about a banshee bomb using Eldrad. Any specific information would be totally awesome. Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving!

More specific information from you would be awesome as well. I have never heard the term "banshee bomb" before. Most likely he means banshees + eldrad + in a wave serpent. I can't see that being terribly effective.

Never heard of it and I'm pretty clued up when it comes to Eldar...

There is the old trick of sticking a doomseer with a squad of Banshees in a Serpent but that's really not effective for the points you spend and the performance on the table.

Perhaps ask your friend to elaborate more?

Iranna.

Well, anything involving Banshees is going to be a ridiculous waste of points, slot, and time. I wouldn't concern yourself over it.

I run 8 Banshees including exarch with Executioner in a Serpent with Eldrad and Yriel. It's a big point sink, but it's a lot of fun and if you're careful it's pretty damn effective.

as was already stated a banshee bomb is a full unit of banshees with eldrad or any farseer really to cast fortune to re-roll your saves and doom to re-roll your wounds dealt to one unit. toss them all in a serpent. in one turn you fortune the serpent move flat out for the 4+ cover save (re-rollable) then next turn you fortune your banshees and doom the unit you plan to assault then the rest is just gravy. however expect this tactic to be a one trick pony

A dead pony at most. Banshees can't assault the turn they disembark, probably their biggest problem as far as my common eldar opponents tell me.

Jidmah wrote:A dead pony at most. Banshees can't assault the turn they disembark, probably their biggest problem as far as my common eldar opponents tell me.

As another eldar player ... the only way you can use a serpent is ram it into the target and get out next turn and assault.

Personally I have little time for anything but fire dragons these days.

Jidmah wrote:A dead pony at most. Banshees can't assault the turn they disembark, probably their biggest problem as far as my common eldar opponents tell me.

They can if you disembark them before your serpent moves.

You mean, after the enemy had an entire turn to either move away from it or assault the serpent?

Jidmah wrote:You mean, after the enemy had an entire turn to either move away from it or assault the serpent?

Indeed. It doesn't sound so good put that way...

It works better than you'd think from looking at it on paper. Speaking from experience here, a couple of fortuned wave serpents moving fast can eat a whole army's firepower and come off with nothing worse than being shaken or losing its gun. Even if it gets destroyed, the banshees can still charge the following turn if they can pass the pin check (on Ld 10 with the farseer).

If it's a regular farseer instead of Eldrad (so that the unit can fleet), and if the serpent is only an inch or two from the thing they want to charge, there's no way an infantry unit can move far enough away to escape being assaulted.

If the victim unit assaults the tank, they're still pretty unlikely to hurt it (skimmer moving fast), and again, the destruction of the tank won't stop the banshees charging as long as they pass their pin test.

A wave serpent is too long for an infantry unit to move up and block the hatch, and even then emergency disembark or having to disembark inside the crater won't stop them from charging in the Eldar turn. Either assault just puts the target unit closer.

The only thing that can really stop a unit of banshees from assaulting the thing they want next turn is being pinned, or a screening unit.

The reasons I don't actually use this tactic any more in competitive play is because it is so easy to counter with screening, and also that the banshees have no follow-up. They can usually wipe out whatever they assault in one or two phases, but it winds up being a unit-for-unit trade when the rest of the opponent's army shoots and/or assaults the disembarked banshees to death.

Ninja'd by Flavius. Spot on post.

Flavius Infernus wrote:It works better than you'd think from looking at it on paper. Speaking from experience here, a couple of fortuned wave serpents moving fast can eat a whole army's firepower and come off with nothing worse than being shaken or losing its gun. Even if it gets destroyed, the banshees can still charge the following turn if they can pass the pin check (on Ld 10 with the farseer).

If it's a regular farseer instead of Eldrad (so that the unit can fleet), and if the serpent is only an inch or two from the thing they want to charge, there's no way an infantry unit can move far enough away to escape being assaulted.

If the victim unit assaults the tank, they're still pretty unlikely to hurt it (skimmer moving fast), and again, the destruction of the tank won't stop the banshees charging as long as they pass their pin test.

A wave serpent is too long for an infantry unit to move up and block the hatch, and even then emergency disembark or having to disembark inside the crater won't stop them from charging in the Eldar turn. Either assault just puts the target unit closer.

The only thing that can really stop a unit of banshees from assaulting the thing they want next turn is being pinned, or a screening unit.

The reasons I don't actually use this tactic any more in competitive play is because it is so easy to counter with screening, and also that the banshees have no follow-up. They can usually wipe out whatever they assault in one or two phases, but it winds up being a unit-for-unit trade when the rest of the opponent's army shoots and/or assaults the disembarked banshees to death.

From an ork perspective and having played against eldar more than against any other army in the game, I will simply charge that serpent with boyz and post likely glance it to death due to it being wrecked by an immobilized or maybe even penetrated by the nob. Afterwards a bunch of T3 models strike first (against orks...), hit on a 4+, wound on a 5+(with a reroll). Then they die. All in all highly unimpressive against anything that's not a Marine.

Not a marine? What kind of backwards parallel universe is this where Marines aren't most of the armies being played?

Nah really though. If an Eldar player is charging Banshees into huge mobs they're not playing right. Or maybe they have no other options in which case they should write some anti-horde into their list. I don't really see that the fact they struggle against tough hordes is a point against them considering that's the opposite of what theyre for.

dnanoodle wrote:Not a marine? What kind of backwards parallel universe is this where Marines aren't most of the armies being played?

Nah really though. If an Eldar player is charging Banshees into huge mobs they're not playing right. Or maybe they have no other options in which case they should write some anti-horde into their list. I don't really see that the fact they struggle against tough hordes is a point against them considering that's the opposite of what theyre for.

Awesome, I didn't know dakkadakka was cross-dimensional
I only know five marine armies on about thirty players around here(some being just one of multiple armies), and even players I don't know at all are usually playing non-Marine armies at their tables.

Point is, Banshees are mostly useless against imperial guard, orks, tyranids, tau, dark eldar and daemons, no matter their exact army list. Sales, polls on this page and tournament roosters tell us that you can expect half the armies out there not being marines or necrons, so I think dumping that many points into a unit that is on par with guardians(without any good weapons) half of your games is not worth it. Especially considering that eldar never struck me as an army that had any difficulties shooting apart power or terminator armor.

Jidmah wrote:

dnanoodle wrote:Not a marine? What kind of backwards parallel universe is this where Marines aren't most of the armies being played?

Nah really though. If an Eldar player is charging Banshees into huge mobs they're not playing right. Or maybe they have no other options in which case they should write some anti-horde into their list. I don't really see that the fact they struggle against tough hordes is a point against them considering that's the opposite of what theyre for.

Awesome, I didn't know dakkadakka was cross-dimensional
I only know five marine armies on about thirty players around here(some being just one of multiple armies), and even players I don't know at all are usually playing non-Marine armies at their tables.

Everyones flgs is different
In mine, Each of the Xeno races have 1 player reach (counting Chaos as Xeno...) and each of the Imperium races have about 3 players each, with Blood Angels having about 9 players

The other point is no one was saying that its an optimal unit, it was more of a case of A. what is the banshee bomb, B. can it be used? C. is it feasible. As Flavius demonstrated it is feasible albeit subpar.
I still see a role for it vs certain builds and used well does have that element of surprise as it isnt seen that often in games.

Banshee's are the most efficient power weapon wounds you get in the eldar book when combined with doom. Low model cost, high init, decent attacks. Really they are only missing either ws5 or rerolls to-hit to make them go from good to great.

The issue, as some others mentioned, is that Banshees are not 'take all comers' assault units. They specialize in dealing with high armor no invuln non-horde enemies. Versus orks, all their advantages (init 10 and power weapons) are lost. Likewise, units of striking scorpions do much better versus orks, but strugle with high armor save units. Both units struggle with THSS termies.

DevianID wrote:Banshee's are the most efficient power weapon wounds you get in the eldar book when combined with doom. Low model cost, high init, decent attacks. Really they are only missing either ws5 or rerolls to-hit to make them go from good to great.

The issue, as some others mentioned, is that Banshees are not 'take all comers' assault units. They specialize in dealing with high armor no invuln non-horde enemies. Versus orks, all their advantages (init 10 and power weapons) are lost. Likewise, units of striking scorpions do much better versus orks, but strugle with high armor save units. Both units struggle with THSS termies.

Only Fortune Warlocks can hold their own against THSS Termi

Actually, Dire Avengers are better versus THSS termies than fortune warlocks, partially due to the price.

10 Dire Avengers with Defend and Shimmershield Exarch combined with fortune from eldrad cost quite a bit less, have the same protection versus non-power weapon attacks, still have a 5++, and subtract 1 attack from all models fighting them.

5 THSS termies versus warlocks will hit 5 times, score 25/6 wounds, and with 3/4 saves end up killing 25/24 fortuned warlocks.

Meanwhile, 5 THSS termies versus dire avengers hit 2.5 times, score 25/12 wounds, and with 5/9 saves kill 100/108 Dire Avengers, or less than 1. 12.5% more warlocks die than Avengers.

If fortune does not go off, (hood? All THSS marine players I know bring them) then the Warlocks take 75/36, while the Avengers take 50/36, so 50% more warlocks die.

Now, one can say the Warlocks kill more THSS termies, BUT the avengers, with a round of shooting first, obviously shoot 2-3 times more s4 shots, and the termies are probably doomed. In CC, a warlock scores 2 hits on the charge, and 1.944 wounds, plus .5 wounds with shooting.

A Dire Avenger scores 1 hit on the charge, and .56 wounds. Shooting sees 1 to 1.5 wounds, depending on bladestorm. The exarch scores 2 hits, and 1.1 wounds, but as a power weapon these are twice as good versus THSS termies making them more like 2.2 wounds.

All in all, the Dire avengers only kill slightly less termies, and are more survivable to boot, plus are cheaper and troops.

Even then, under the current FAQs, subsequent rounds of combat may pull the Farseer into combat where he can be slammed by a thunderhammer, ending the fortune parade.

Sorry to get off track. I'd heard of the Banshee bomb a year or so ago. Its using a lot of banshees in serpents with doomseers to crush a few enemy units on turn 2 or 3. It was a fun list from someone's blog and I don't put much stock in it. I don't like spam even when it's melta-toting Dragons. I definitely don't like it when it uses all your best anti-tank slots too.

I like the banshee bomb personally, and I use it almost every game. Granted, I play mostly against CSM, but the unit really does do some damage in the good situation.

I mostly aim them at my enemy's CC troops though, because he'll be wanting to charge me. However, with the counter attack uprgade, I really don't care who charges.

Having 1 unit of 10 banshees with doomseer doesn't count as spamming does it?

1 unit? Haha yeah it does! You're such a WAAC player for opening your codex and daring to use it! =)

When I see ___ bomb, I generally expect 3+ units. That's what I saw when I first heard of this. Anyway, I don't think it's worth doing that, but I do personally like CC units and 10 Banshees do pretty rad things if played right

dnanoodle wrote:1 unit? Haha yeah it does! You're such a WAAC player for opening your codex and daring to use it! =)

Alas, shame on me...

I think I need to take hawks to balance out my WAAC attitude.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

dnanoodle wrote:1 unit? Haha yeah it does! You're such a WAAC player for opening your codex and daring to use it! =)

Alas, shame on me...

I think I need to take hawks to balance out my WAAC attitude.

5 hawks aren't terrible ... Deep strike one large blast ... and often they manage to charge and kill a tank ... 105pts, which can be highly amusing.

Well, one of our eldar players had a crashed Hawk modeled onto a Mountain we use as impassible terrain, after the tenth unit of swooping hawks died when deepstriking onto that exact mountain in seven games

Eldrad Ulthran --------------------------210

Farseer ----------------------------------130
Spirit Stones, Runes of Witnessing, Guide, Doom

2 x 10 Dire Avengers -----------------304
Exarch w/ Twinpults & bladestorm

2 x Wave Serpent ---------------------250
Star Engines, TL Shuricannon & Spirit Stones

2 x 10 Howling Banshees -----------374
Exarch w/ Executioner and Acrobatic

2 x Wave Serpent --------------------250
Star Engines, Spirit Stones, and TL Shuricannon

3 x Fire Prism -----------------------480
Holofields & SS

1998 total

and done. That is my 2000pt list and I love it. I usually put eldrad and the farseer with DA squads but i've considered putting eldrad with the banshees. I've played this in a tourney and got 3rd and I've used it vs almost everyone at my FLGS and it has done very well.

That list runs into massive issues the second you face any kind of mech list and has almost no way of handling heavy armour at all. The Prisms are obvious targets and still only amount to 1-2 meaningful damage results per turn, barely enough to deal with a single Land Raider let alone more than one, or other AV13+ heavy armies. Your ranged shooting amounts to 4 T/L S6 24" range weapons, which might suppress 1-2 light vehicles per turn but certainly won't be reliably killing them reliably. Against IG, Necrons or other Eldar you basically can't kill anything at all and against the rest you simply don't put out enough damage (even without factoring in that they will be doing damage in return to reduce it further).

Banshees are fun to use and certainly put out plenty of damage with Doom, but the ever present issues with setting up the charge and the huge chunk they take out of your points which aren't being spent on scoring units or anti tank units make them a liability in a competitive environment. For their cost they need to be able to go toe to toe with other elite assault unit (they are in the Elites section after all) and even with everything going their way they can struggle against standard Marines. When you realise that someone could completely neutralise this tactic with a 60pt Vyper (without even needing to shoot) hopefully you realise that it has some major flaws.

Powerguy wrote:Banshees are fun to use and certainly put out plenty of damage with Doom, but the ever present issues with setting up the charge and the huge chunk they take out of your points which aren't being spent on scoring units or anti tank units make them a liability in a competitive environment. For their cost they need to be able to go toe to toe with other elite assault unit (they are in the Elites section after all) and even with everything going their way they can struggle against standard Marines. When you realise that someone could completely neutralise this tactic with a 60pt Vyper (without even needing to shoot) hopefully you realise that it has some major flaws.

Well you see now that's funny, because my 7 banshees were charged by a squad of 10 chaos bezerkers, (admittedly they were doomed) and managed to chomp them in a single turn.

Maybe I'm just lucky, but I really have to disagree with the statement that "even with everything going their way they can struggle against standard Marines". I'm sorry but no, just no. 10 banshees, against a doomed tactical squad, on the charge will not have problems by any standard luck.

Now SS terminators...