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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/11/27 06:54:20
Subject: Haemonculi coven: Urien Rakarth or more Haemonculi?
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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Helping a local player new to Dark Eldar, and to 40K in general with his Haemonculi army.
Neither of us can decide if Urien Rakarth is worth taking, or if it's better to just have another 3 Haemonculi.
He had planned on 4 units of Raider-bound Wracks, each with a Haemonculus leading it, two of them with Webway Portals, two units of Grotesques either with their own Raiders or walking through the portals, a few Talos to come through the portals, and then things like Scourges (he quite wants to take some of these) or Venoms or something to fill the holes in the army (more anti-tank if it's needed, more anti-horde if that's needed, etc.).
We keep looking at Rakarth, but wonder if it's worth losing so many Haemonculi to take him. His Pain Token ability is easily replicated by just leading each unit with a Haemonculus. He's a lot harder to kill than one, though. And we're not quite sure if it's worth upgrading those Grotesques to S6, or if 5 is enough.
Any insight from anyone who has played this sort of thing, or has at least explored the Dark Eldar codex a lot?
Any other suggestions would be helpful too; things to use, things to stay away from, problem matchups for this kind of list (our area is really Marine-heavy, though with a strong Ork and strong Eldar player), etc.
Thanks ahead of time.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/11/27 08:34:49
Subject: Haemonculi coven: Urien Rakarth or more Haemonculi?
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Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch
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I've never played a haemy army nor seen one for that matter. I would bring up to your friend that a major drawback to such an army is that none of the units have fleet, so if they lose their raiders it's not going to be a fun day for them. Also, they have no Invul saves, so if they get attacked by PW squads, they are going to get mulched =/
Have your friend look into some good ranged support units to take out units that will try to snipe the raiders before they get into assault range. Since the grotesques take up the elite slots I would suggest Ravagers within the heavy slots and scourge with DL (I know most of my fellow DE players will laugh at that) but they are a decently mobile sniper squad.
Problem match ups will be GKs...I6 PW will destroy the Wracks and Grotesques. Razor lists can also be troublesome since they are good at sniping the Raiders and then putting holes into the troops. I don't know much about Ork or Eldar, so I can't tell you what to watch out for with them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/11/27 12:34:10
Subject: Haemonculi coven: Urien Rakarth or more Haemonculi?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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I once rode out 6 turns of ranged marine fire with 30 wracks at 1750. Everything else I had just dies. 4+ and 4+ in cover i awsome.
Urien Rakarth is quite good. His 2 units with grotesque should be upgraded to +1 str, and they also need baby sitting. (Rakarth and 2 haemonculy.)
The other 2 haemoncaly should be used with the two wrack units that are opening up the WWP.
If you wanted 4 raiders then the last 2 raiders are filled with 10 wracks. Now, Rakarth lets them begin the game with furius charge. That makes wracks a danger to AV10 in melle but also lets them reroll those 4+ poison vs marines, and with 2 liquefier guns and 3 attacks on the charge with 4+ with rerolls they are a bargain for 120 points.
Of course, you might wanne use haemonculies for that, but you loose that liequefiergun (meaning you do not gain any with the haemocaly), and the haemonculy is an IC and can easaly die.
I would sugest that talons and scourges have the haywire gun. You need ranged AT and those weaponds just say "stop, let me charge you next round".
Grotesques with a S6 is also better vs dreadnoughts in a longer fight and S7 on the charge is just bad ass. They can then also theathen the new quantum shielding. (AV 13 all around baby.)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/11/28 01:33:30
Subject: Re:Haemonculi coven: Urien Rakarth or more Haemonculi?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Short answer, more liquifiers. With a wrack list, it makes sense to have 6 of them running around. That's a lot of power armored guys pooping their drawers, particularly if you have haems attached to each other, odds-wise, guaranteeing an AP 1, 2, or 3 smack.
Urien does gobble up positions.
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"You can bring any cheesy unit you want. If you lose. Casey taught me that." -Tim S.
"I'm gonna follow Casey; he knows where the beer's at!" -Blackmoor, BAO 2013
Quitting Daemon Princes, Bob and Fred - a 40k webcomic |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/11/29 12:30:08
Subject: Re:Haemonculi coven: Urien Rakarth or more Haemonculi?
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Deadly Dark Eldar Warrior
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I have a haemonculi coven army, I love the fluff. And my way to decide whether you want to take Urien is dependant on whether or not you want to take grotesques.
If you do take them, then you can get the extra strength for them, and he has better stats and the extra pain tokens, it brings a nice synergy to the army. However if you don't have grotesques and have more wracks (which seems to be the way you've done it) I would definitely do go with haemonculi because then the same job he provides can be done with more haemonculi and you can bring liquifiers aswell. As you said, the extra pain tokens are given with haemonculi anyway, you're not getting his bonus of extra strength and his better stats are then not worth the extra points you pay compared to having multiple haemonculi with their handy little devices.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/11/29 12:33:53
Subject: Haemonculi coven: Urien Rakarth or more Haemonculi?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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The problem with haemonqulies is that to get the double pain token you are loosing that 10th wrack and "3rd" liquefiergun if they are in a raider. And he needs a WWP delivery system.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/11/29 14:05:42
Subject: Haemonculi coven: Urien Rakarth or more Haemonculi?
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Deadly Dark Eldar Warrior
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Niiai wrote:The problem with haemonqulies is that to get the double pain token you are loosing that 10th wrack and "3rd" liquefiergun if they are in a raider. And he needs a WWP delivery system.
maybe, but that is really an argument over whether you choose a raider vs. a WWP delivery.
Because choosing Urien getting that second pain token is not reliable, you can't know that you'll get that next pain token for more than one squad, it's cheap to just get more haemonculi if you're only worried about the extra pain token. Not to mention, if you taken Urien instead of a haemonuli you still won't get that third liquifier, you won't even get the second one and you'll still lose the 10th wrack.
EDIT: although personally on that issue I've gone with WWP so I can have the large squad of wracks complete with haemonculi so I can have three liquifier and hexrifle. But also because I have two talos and a chronos and having them walking up the board would get them shot to death and to have a large squad of grotesques
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/29 14:13:00
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/11/30 09:31:12
Subject: Haemonculi coven: Urien Rakarth or more Haemonculi?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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You misunderstand me: How are you going to get the WWP upon the map?
Are you going to start on foot and walk it up? You need to get one placed in the first turn and preferably one more in the second turn. Perhaps a 3rd. This demands raiders.
If you stick a haemonculy in a raider you only get 2 liquefier guns in the raider. The same if you are taking 10 wracks and no haemonculy. If you are taking more raiders then the mere minimum (for screening for instance) then a 10 man wrack unit with a pain token from urien is not so bad.
Edit: I have no idea what I am on about.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/30 09:37:11
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/11/30 10:48:07
Subject: Haemonculi coven: Urien Rakarth or more Haemonculi?
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Deadly Dark Eldar Warrior
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Niiai wrote:You misunderstand me: How are you going to get the WWP upon the map?
Are you going to start on foot and walk it up? You need to get one placed in the first turn and preferably one more in the second turn. Perhaps a 3rd. This demands raiders.
If you stick a haemonculy in a raider you only get 2 liquefier guns in the raider. The same if you are taking 10 wracks and no haemonculy. If you are taking more raiders then the mere minimum (for screening for instance) then a 10 man wrack unit with a pain token from urien is not so bad.
Edit: I have no idea what I am on about.
Well that is actually where wracks do very well, because they can be taken in a minimum group of 3 with a bare bones haemonculiin a venom, used as a delivery system for the WWP.
You can use the wracks in a raider, but I've seen that those two(three if you want) groups will die, because there is only these two groups on the board, so much better to use as little points as possible.
And that's also my point, why go with 10 wracks when you can get the same output with 9 wracks and a haemonculi (and even an agoniser as well) and a guaranteed extra pain token, compared to the uncertainty of how many pain tokens you may get with urien.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/30 10:49:04
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/11/30 11:22:01
Subject: Haemonculi coven: Urien Rakarth or more Haemonculi?
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Manhunter
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Not sure about a coven, but in my list I have 2 Haemy's attached to 2 9-man Wych squads in Raiders. The FNP helps them against normal attacks, and then afterwards I have the Haemy's in the Raiders shooting stuff with the liquifiers.
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Lokas wrote:...Enemy of my enemy is kind of a dick, so let's kill him too.
"Without judgement there is no obstacle to action." ~ Kommander Oleg Strakhov
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/11/30 14:11:06
Subject: Re:Haemonculi coven: Urien Rakarth or more Haemonculi?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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If your going a true coven list I think Urien is the way to go. S7 onthe charge Grots should fill in any tank needs you have nicely, but as a previous poster stated your going to want a lot of haywire between your Taloi and your Scourges to help your Wracks and Grots get in range.
WWP are a must, they greatly increase the deploment oppurtunites of everything else. Remember you can "DS" the scourges and then basically have unlimited deployment options as they can come out of the WWP or DS depending on where the opponent sits.
Also, and I realise this is anathema on the interwebs, but Mandrakes perform swimmingly in a WWP army. One unit outflanking can basically come on to the board, fleet and charge just about anything, and give you something to punish your enemy with if they hide Dev squads or long fangs on the flanks away from your portals. Trueborn addiction has marginalised these guys but you would be amazed how integral to a strong WWP strategy just one unit can be.
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