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Howdy folks.


Ran a quick game this morning against a friend of mine who ran Eldar. Now we'd decided to make it an assault of sorts, me having a prepared position with trenches and most of the building-cover. Whereas I could only field 1,000 points the attacking army could field 1,500, and to be honest the difference wasn't terribly noticeable.

He kicked my ass.

Now, normally my rolling fails me every game, but this one my dice were with me (mostly). I popped his only transport early on, making him having to slog his entire army the five feet into my guns. It didn't work out.

My questions are thus:

For defensive play, is it worth taking Veterans? I fielded three squads with plasmas and autocannon teams, which were wiped out by turn 2.
Are arty pieces worth taking for such a low point game? Would have another LRBT given me more cover fire?
My Company Command Squad, should I play them safe and keep them in the back, so that the MoO can drop the large blasts? Or should I swap him out for a Commissar or something and keep the CCS with my gunline?

I don't normally do gunline setups, but this was my second shot at one and still, my line buckled. I'm at a loss for dealing with Eldar, especially a shooty Eldar army.

Any help/ideas/LOL U SUX would be mucho appreciated.

on Vets, it's never worth taking them if you aten't going to load them up
in a Chimera/Vendetta/Valkyrie, imho. they're still Guardsmen.

And even stationary, the MoO blows, imho.

Agreed with both points.

The MoO is not worth it and Veterans belong in metal boxes.

3 melta/plasma in a Chimera is an excellent firebase (no need for a heavy weapon) and if you want flamers, take a PCS with 4 flamers in a Chimera so you don't waste the Veterans BS4.

Alternatively, 3 melta/plasma in a Valkyrie outflanking has always served me well. Give them demolitions and really watch the sparks fly!

I use my CCS offensively. You won't be giving orders if you're mechanized so give him a plasma pistol, 4 plasmagun veterans and a Chimera to execute some 9 shot AP2 goodness. If you have the points to spare, carapace can help with Gets Hot!

Autocannons are great. Autocannons on Hydras are pure, skimmer-swatting goodness. And they're cheap as chips.

1 LRBT is a huge target and will be eliminated quickly. Two (not in a squadron) makes your opponent split their fire and makes them each much more survivable. Plus, 2 S8 AP3 large blasts is always better than 1. This being said, you know he's coming to you, so why not try Demolishers instead?

As far as artillery is concerned, I swear by the Manticore. It's gonna miss, sure, but when you get that magical 3 template S10 ordnance barrage hit. Goodbye Eldar tanks/jetbikes/pretty much everything.

Long story short, Sun Tzu said it first: "The best defense is a good offense" (though he probably said it in some form of Chinese). Sitting back with a gunline is great, but having the mobility and firepower to counterattack your enemy is invaluable.

Y'know I had never considered taking the fight to my opponent in this situation. Perhaps I'll run this fight again and run the Valk with some Melta-nastiness. Heh.

As for the CCS, I played super conservative, using the MoO to ordnance the crap out of the Eldar as they advanced. Although...for 30pts, with a guaranteed scatter? I suppose you're right. Not the best choice.

As for the Manticore, I'm willing to try it a few more times. The time I did get the 3 large blasts was way cool, shame they missed the center of his army. For the LRBT's, do you recommend sponsons or any sort of front facing weapon upgrade (i.e. the HB to the HF or Las)?

Thanks for the help though, gonna get a rematch this weekend.

Hydras
Valkyries
ML, AC or LC HW teams with a CMD team "bring it down" orders.
Manticore

All of these are reliable ways for dealing with transports. Personally, I like AC HW teams and Valkyries.

As with any gunline force structure, the key with these assets is target priority. You will want layered sectors of fire. Long range (all mentioned above), mid-range (Multi-lasers and plasma rifles), Short range, melta-guns, demo charges). All of these assets should be able to be brought to bear on the same targets as they approach your lines.

Using the most reliable long range assets available goes a long way to ensure a succesful gunline - you want to engage from the furthest away with a high likelihood to disable. Once you've stopped the vehicle from moving or shooting, move onto the next target. The longer they have to travel and stay inside your kill zone the better for you. Your elements can focus on destroying enemy vehicles once the immediate threat of return fire and close-proximity movement is countered.

I do like having a local or close support fire support asset available - CMD sqd with meltas or plasmas, vets, chimeras with hull heavy flamers - something that can saturate a unit that made it through the guantlet.

Being a longtime guard player, I will just say I love conscripts for fixed position games. The other guy looks at them and just stays away. Also, instead of a LRBT try the Exterminator with its twin-linked autocannons and three heavy bolters, its a lot of firepower.

I prefer LC over ML HW for the extra punch, but AC HW are excellent for dealing with Eldar with the AP4 S7.

Don't know if you gents might know the answer, but I was using the Manticore against the same guy from last weekend and I got a couple hits on his Falcon. Awesome right? Two D6 and I get to choose the higher for armor pen, sweet!

Not so, Holo-Fields means that my friend get's the same option, choosing the lower if he wants to.

These clash, any idea which one supercedes the other?

Holo-fields lets your opponent roll two dice for the damage table and apply the lowest result so it doesn't conflict with the Ordnance rule.

Bah! totally screwed myself out of a penetrating hit today. Curse you Eldar!

Not to mention my own lack of knowledge of my opponent's army.

You said here that you lost, but you didn't say how.

As best I can tell, he had a few skimmers, not all of which you popped, and then the ones that survived got in close and liquefied you either in close combat or with close-range shooting.

properly-built guard lists shouldn't have overt problems with either. Without any more information, I'd guess you probably have a crappy list.

Can't fight the good fight without the proper tools.

Valks and chimeras stocked with vets. you could try to outflank the valks but that can turn into a risky gambit if you dont do well on your reserve rolls. I think an army heavy in this type of troops would work well for holding the line. My IG army is designed to be good at both holding the line and pushing forward and is very flexible as I field nearly the same list for every game... got away on a little tangent there, I hope you get my point.

Plasma Plasma Plasma.

Played a similar break out game where I was defending and the wads of plasma plates I sent his way made him cry.

Armored Sentinals with plasma cannons are a very nice mobile platform that you can pop in and out of cover.

The guy earlier saying Lemun Russ is a big target, he is right, it's a good way to make your enemy predictable. You know they are coming for the tank.

On the flip side I have a brother that will ALWAYS go for my Infantry Platoon Blob because he is Space Wolves and knows he can keep me from shooting him if he's dug in for 2 turns with my 20-30 guys.

I assume the eldar were close combat and ran in? FRSR on a 20-30 man platoon can be NASTY against those kinds of troops. Throw in a commish so they don't pee their pants.

Run a PCS with as many heavy bolters or autocannons as you can.
Also have two squads of infantry with flamers for dealing with any eldar that get close.


also, snipers could help pin them down so that the eldar arrive at your gunline in pieces.

Ailaros wrote:You said here that you lost, but you didn't say how.

As best I can tell, he had a few skimmers, not all of which you popped, and then the ones that survived got in close and liquefied you either in close combat or with close-range shooting.

properly-built guard lists shouldn't have overt problems with either. Without any more information, I'd guess you probably have a crappy list.

Can't fight the good fight without the proper tools.

Yeah, I know I didn't delve too deep into the actual fight. Wanted to keep it sort of short and sweet and not turn it into a batrep, so much for that eh?

Well, the list I built was similar to what everyone's said here. Lotsa plasma vets, CCS with plasma (I mistakenly kept them in the back, outside of order range), a LRBT and a Manticore. He only had one skimmer, which I popped turn 2 via the LRBT. He ran Guardians, Storm Guardians, 2x five man Dire Avenger squads, Avatar, Wraith Lord, two units of 5 man rangers, and Dark Reapers.

I had a trench system across the width of the board, high ruins behind that. Kept the Manticore behind a set and the LRBT nearby some for the cover save. The CCS hung in the back building, my MoO using the tall building to call in arty. Had my vets in the trenches, lined across the board. I'm realizing now that wasn't such a good idea. He moved across the board, towards the trenchline using his Wraithlord, Dark Reapers, Rangers, and Falcon for cover fire. Lost quite a few guys to the Rangers, so even when he hit the trenchline with everything that was assault/rapid fire most of my squads were dead anyway. He broke through the trenches, closed with my tanks and finished off my CCS with Dark Reaper fire.

Manticore missed 2/4 shots only rolling about 2 large blasts on average (two 6s and two 1s. I know I know.), LRBT stopped one flank with bc and lascannon fire. Aside from that? The Vets did squat, killed maybe 3 Rangers, couple Guardians. Now that I know to just use my Chimeras, I won't make the same mistakes in the future by having the squishy guardsmen out in the open against such a shooty army. All in all? I played poorly and coupled with my rolling (which never changes btw) it cost me the fight. I'd considered snipers, but the BS of the average Guardsman sucks so the pinning is sort of meh. I'd rather field STs with their Infiltrate Spec Ops option if I'm aiming for a slow-them-down method.

I know this fight makes me look like crap, and to be honest? It felt crappy getting stomped the way I did. I always thought the carapace upgrades that the vet's got were great (yay 4+) but in reality, unless you're doing melta-vets...the special 30 pt bonuses suck. I also know now that the CCS isn't to be coddled, it's a powerhouse of a unit when given the right gear (in this case nix the MoO, give everyone else Plasmas, and for godsakes put them on the line.). I appreciate the help, even it is to say "LAWL. Sux."

I rebuilt the list I used to make it not suck:

CCS: 4xPlasmas, Plasma Pistol, Carapace

Veteran Squad: 3xPlasmas, Plasma Pistol, Autocannon
Veteran Squad: 3xPlasmas, Plasma Pistol, Autocannon
Veteran Squad: 3xPlasmas, Plasma Pistol, Autocannon

Leman Russ Demolisher: Multi-Meltas, HB
Manticore: HB

Vets all have Chimeras that're Heavy Flamers and Heavy Bolters.

You can't put 4 plasma guns in a command squad though...

Frankenberry wrote:

Ailaros wrote:You said here that you lost, but you didn't say how.

As best I can tell, he had a few skimmers, not all of which you popped, and then the ones that survived got in close and liquefied you either in close combat or with close-range shooting.

properly-built guard lists shouldn't have overt problems with either. Without any more information, I'd guess you probably have a crappy list.

Can't fight the good fight without the proper tools.

Yeah, I know I didn't delve too deep into the actual fight. Wanted to keep it sort of short and sweet and not turn it into a batrep, so much for that eh?

Well, the list I built was similar to what everyone's said here. Lotsa plasma vets, CCS with plasma (I mistakenly kept them in the back, outside of order range), a LRBT and a Manticore. He only had one skimmer, which I popped turn 2 via the LRBT. He ran Guardians, Storm Guardians, 2x five man Dire Avenger squads, Avatar, Wraith Lord, two units of 5 man rangers, and Dark Reapers.

I had a trench system across the width of the board, high ruins behind that. Kept the Manticore behind a set and the LRBT nearby some for the cover save. The CCS hung in the back building, my MoO using the tall building to call in arty. Had my vets in the trenches, lined across the board. I'm realizing now that wasn't such a good idea. He moved across the board, towards the trenchline using his Wraithlord, Dark Reapers, Rangers, and Falcon for cover fire. Lost quite a few guys to the Rangers, so even when he hit the trenchline with everything that was assault/rapid fire most of my squads were dead anyway. He broke through the trenches, closed with my tanks and finished off my CCS with Dark Reaper fire.

Manticore missed 2/4 shots only rolling about 2 large blasts on average (two 6s and two 1s. I know I know.), LRBT stopped one flank with bc and lascannon fire. Aside from that? The Vets did squat, killed maybe 3 Rangers, couple Guardians. Now that I know to just use my Chimeras, I won't make the same mistakes in the future by having the squishy guardsmen out in the open against such a shooty army. All in all? I played poorly and coupled with my rolling (which never changes btw) it cost me the fight. I'd considered snipers, but the BS of the average Guardsman sucks so the pinning is sort of meh. I'd rather field STs with their Infiltrate Spec Ops option if I'm aiming for a slow-them-down method.

I know this fight makes me look like crap, and to be honest? It felt crappy getting stomped the way I did. I always thought the carapace upgrades that the vet's got were great (yay 4+) but in reality, unless you're doing melta-vets...the special 30 pt bonuses suck. I also know now that the CCS isn't to be coddled, it's a powerhouse of a unit when given the right gear (in this case nix the MoO, give everyone else Plasmas, and for godsakes put them on the line.). I appreciate the help, even it is to say "LAWL. Sux."

I rebuilt the list I used to make it not suck:

CCS: 4xPlasmas, Plasma Pistol, Carapace

Veteran Squad: 3xPlasmas, Plasma Pistol
Veteran Squad: 3xPlasmas, Plasma Pistol
Veteran Squad: 3xPlasmas, Plasma Pistol

Leman Russ Demolisher: Multi-Meltas, HB
Manticore: HB

Vets all have Chimeras that're Heavy Flamers and Heavy Bolters.

on the Chimera, i'd go ML and HHFlamer.
If you find a way to work it in, you'll love a Hydra against Eldar.

I worked another list that would cost me the Manticore in favor of a pair of Hydra's. Or would it be more to my advantage to get rid of the LRBT and keep the Manticore?

Frankenberry wrote:I worked another list that would cost me the Manticore in favor of a pair of Hydra's. Or would it be more to my advantage to get rid of the LRBT and keep the Manticore?

Against Eldar, i'd go 2 Hydra and Manticore.
The Str. 10 will crush any vehicles and the Ap 4 won't let them have Armor saves.

Squidmanlolz wrote:You can't put 4 plasma guns in a command squad though...

Yes you can.

Yup, you can. Just can't upgrade them with anything else.

Frankenberry wrote: Had my vets in the trenches, lined across the board. I'm realizing now that wasn't such a good idea.

Yup. This is why you lost.

Vets have extremely limited staying power to both close combat and close range shooting. The way they stay out of close combat is by praying their steel can will keep them out of close combat for an extra turn, while making them immune to small arms fire (likewise, until the can is destroyed). Vets can be made to work on foot, but only if they are able to hide inside of a horde army, which you didn't bring.

Vets are very fragile creatures, and against enemies that have lots of long-range shooting, or who know what they're doing up close, your fragility will only be exacerbated, turning it into a game of "can I do more damage to you before you do damage to me" game. Out in the open against scatter lasers with plasma guns, that's going to be real tough.

Ailaros wrote:

Frankenberry wrote: Had my vets in the trenches, lined across the board. I'm realizing now that wasn't such a good idea.

Yup. This is why you lost.

Vets have extremely limited staying power to both close combat and close range shooting. The way they stay out of close combat is by praying their steel can will keep them out of close combat for an extra turn, while making them immune to small arms fire (likewise, until the can is destroyed). Vets can be made to work on foot, but only if they are able to hide inside of a horde army, which you didn't bring.

Vets are very fragile creatures, and against enemies that have lots of long-range shooting, or who know what they're doing up close, your fragility will only be exacerbated, turning it into a game of "can I do more damage to you before you do damage to me" game. Out in the open against scatter lasers with plasma guns, that's going to be real tough.

I totally agree with you Ailaros, my buddy once did that in an apocalypse all vets he used 8 squads of vets without transports just with grenade launchers wheras if he had taken platoons he could have used like 15 squads. One thing i have learnd is that if you are playing gunline infantry the best loadout for the squad imo is a nade launcher and autocannon, correct me if im wrong as i really only play blob guard thanks to Ailaros' inspiring battle reports.

My current playstyle doesn't support the blob tactic. I've ready Ailaros' batreps and he has a stupid amount of success. I might give it a shot in the future if only to try something different.

I was thinking of doing the two 5-man ST deepstrike with plasma's or meltas. Drop them right by a WL or his DR squad and watch the fireworks.

Mechvets with stormies are good if you want to DOMINATE mid-game, but it's a bit riskier in that if you aren't able to wipe the board on turns 2-4 when all your plasma comes to bear, then it's going to be broken cans with few models (both vets and stormies) out in the open and vulnerable.

Just depends on how you want to play.

Two hydras is almost always better than one LRBT. Manticore is almost always better than LRBT. So, take hydras and manticores if you have the models.

Clearly your list and deployment had problems, as pointed out by others. What I would point out is targeting priority. Using a battlecannon to pop a transport is a colossal waste against footdar. You could have done the same far more cheaply with a plasma gun because eldar armor is a joke. The pie plate should instead have been used on what was killing your army all along - reapers and rangers, in that order.

I agree the carapice upgrade is a waste. Put the points towards a chimera instead. Trying to save an 8 pt model by slightly increasing its survivability at the expense of 3 additional points is a waste. Also, the point of plasma is to cause as much damage as possible before it blows up and kills the vet. IG is an army of attrition - casualties are ok if you hurt the enemy even more. If you want tough surviving models, play MEQ instead.

Take some time to think out the outfitting of your chimeras. My recommendation is ML, HF, and heavy stubber. The stubber is another 3 shots at 36 inches, and it can always be fired because S4 means it is a defensive weapon. If you tend to play on cover-heavy maps, I would also take camo netting and stick the chimeras in cover upon deployment. With autocannons, you do not want to move anyway, so difficult terrain tests are irrelevant. The camo netting will improve your cover save to 3+, which is great when stacked on top of the AV12.

With proper army list, upgrades, and fire discipline, you should wipe the space elves off the table. They are fast but fragile and their weapons are generally mid-strength, so cover saves plus armor will make you last longer than they can.