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From what I have gathered it's considered best to leave the PF to the Berzerker champ. So is there a load out for a Plauge champ that complements him well or is he best just left untouched? On that note is there any real need for a Plauge Champion?

Why not both? Having that last little 'punch' can really help you out be it in assault with another unit or swinging at a vehicle. With the plague marine he is I3 anyway so dropping down to I1 isn't a huge deal when going against MEQ. Its generally better to take fist with his rather than a power weapon. And this will give the unit some anti tank/walker. I usually run a champ Berserker with a power weapon and Melta bombs. The problem with this is that will a full squad you run the potential of doing so many wounds your power weapon wounds get stacked on a single model. With the fist you can't stack them since they swing last. If you don't need an icon on the plague champ and don't upgrade him his not really worth taking, unless you are wanting to possess him for a greater demon in which case you need a champion.

Agreed. They're kinda situational to me. In reality you shouldn't be getting your PM into assault anyways, but IF you do its nice to have 2-3 S8 attacks. I usually always take it, just to give my unit that 'swiss army knife' utility. Cause most people I know want to get into assault with them because I usually just have them sit and shoot things. And if T5, FNP, and Blight grenades don't ward off enough assaults the PF usually does.

Most people won't take em because of the point cost, which I have to agree on is high. But there usually comes a point in various games that my KB or other assaulty unit have gotten taken out from massed shooting. And in those cases I'm glad I at least have one more hiden fist in my army. My best advice is to try it out. Just give it a whirl and see if YOU like it. In any case you make the final call.

Killadoza wrote:From what I have gathered it's considered best to leave the PF to the Berzerker champ. So is there a load out for a Plauge champ that complements him well or is he best just left untouched? On that note is there any real need for a Plauge Champion?

Skull champ- Furious charge, WS5, 3 attacks on the profile.
Plague champ- T4(5), I3, 2 attacks on the profile

Is it best to leave the PF to the zerker champ? If you give them both P. weapons-

skull chump- S5 WS5 I5 5 attacks on the charge ignoring armor saves
Plague champ- S4 WS4 I3 4 attacks on the charge ignoring armor saves

The skull champ will go before MEQ's, at the same time as alot of MEQ characters/IC's, has a greater chance of hitting and wounding enemies.
The Plague champ is like a tac marine sarge, except T4(5). But he swings AFTER the tac sarge.

If we give them a fist-

Skull champ- S8(9), WS5, I1(5), 4 attacks on the charge
Plague champ- S8, WS4, I1(3), 3 attacks on the charge

So you lose 4 points of initiative on the skull champ, and only 2 points on the plague-O. The skull champ has 1 more attack, and is more likely to hit, and is stronger vs vehicles.

The reason 'zerker's are considered fist worthy is the lack of meltaguns. They cannot deal with a dreadnought without a meltabomb or fist. Their job is to destroy the enemy infantry, preferably the ones sitting on objectives capping. The problem with plague marines are they don't do as much damage in CC- they can take alot, but they don't dish it out like 'zerkers. The fist gives you an almost guaranteed wound or two, which considering how tough plague marines are has often tipped the scales for me in the combat resolution- I don't have to make fearless wounds, the opponent has to make a moral check though.

Take fists e'rry day yo

It's situaltional, but I usually always took a fist. You usually swing last anyways as stated, and at I1 they cant play allocation shinanigans. At some point in time they will be assaulted, and winning a fight is paramount.

exactly. Because of the low I, your not losing much by taking a fist- vs say a marine captain or CSM lord with a fist, who drops from 5 (before MEQ) to 1. And winning the fight is paramount- plague marine are that tough that vs non dedicated assault units you will lose only 1-3 marines. But the squads are usually small (5-8, I don't see many folk taking 10), so they don't return much damage. I find the fist means alot less fearless saves, and softens the unit up for when you get something to help them out.

Also, 2-3 squads of plague-o's with fists and some cunning multi assaults can cripple a guard line very quickly. The fist helps you when you get assaulted by a walker, but also helps dramatically with assaulting enemy vehicles.

Jihallah wrote:The reason 'zerker's are considered fist worthy is the lack of meltaguns.

This.

Berzerkers are choppy not just because they're good at it, but, apart from a couple of plasma pistols, they literally can't do anything else. Nurgle, on the other hand, has options, making the fist less necessary.

The thing you've got to remember with plague marines is that they're shooty, not choppy (at least, not much choppier than your regular CSM). Not only can they take guns, but FNP's primary use is to reduce damage from any form of shooting that isn't anti-AV14. In close combat, it's really, really easy to find things that ignore FNP, which, when combined with crappy initiative, makes close combat tough.

If you run the numbers, you'll find that there are a lot of things that a berzerker squad can beat in close combat that a plague marine squad can't, even if they both have champs with the fist.

The fist may give you some protection, but it comes at a dear cost. Better probably to leave the PM's plain with nothing but a pair of plasma guns (or perhaps melta), and use other units in your army (like your MoN warptime DPs) to shield them from close combat.