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It's a common thing said from other wargamers in other games. That WH40K is more childish, that it as a game is meant for a younger audience while others (their own) are meant for an older audience.

Is there any truth to this? Or is it them just trying to make themselves feel superior? Is it just abunch of people mad at how their are more younger people in WH40K than in their own (which may have more to do with 40K's much greater popularity than any real differences in the game itself). Or is their real truth to it? Is 40K just made for children?

I wouldn't say it is childish at all. Kids like it because they like sci fi. But the place where I play there are more adults that play than little kids and I would have to say next to warhammer fanasty warhammer 40k is one of the the most popular games out there. And most people probably will say that there game is better but its there opion. But I feel that 40i is the best wargame out there.

Not to mention it is the game that younger children have the best chance of exposure to. I hadn't even heard of any non-GW games until a couple of years ago.

At my flgs im the youngest regular, out of 12-13 players and im 21. And a half... Lol.

I can't imagine this thread ending too well.

But... well, in my opinion, 40k (and Fantasy) are both games for children in their current forms. Young boys are GW's target audience at the moment, since they're the best demographic for the 'spend a lot of money all at once' cash grab (apparently). The ruleset is complicated (as opposed to being complex), with special rules all over the place - something that children love. Not to mention the fact that most games need no more tactical know-how than 'shoot the anti-tank gun at the tank'.

Is the game 'childish'? Eh? I certainly wouldn't want someone under the age of, say, 16 to be looking though the Daemons books.

As someone who enjoys fantasy and 40k, I feel that the rules are easier for someone starting out to pickup 40k and learn the basics. Like STR -> Toughness differences and how that affects the roll required. How to look at unit stat lines. Some of the basics that are true in both games. After learning a bit of 40k I think someone would be ready for the more complex rules of fantasy (IE STR 4 weapon reduces armor save by 1) as you already know what the basic differences mean for wounding than you add some more rules for armor saves. I don't think any games that take a lot of time to paint/assemble/plan are more childish or less childish. To each their own and I think we are all playing with little toy soldiers. It just changes on scale from games like Warhammer 40k to the tiny scales like Flames of War.

The people who make the claims the OP is refering to are people who are sour grapes that 40k is the big name in the industry as opposed to their pet game(s).

ALL OF US PLAY WITH TOY SOLDIERS, claim of stratification tend to be mere arrogant bull$%^&.

infinite_array wrote:I can't imagine this thread ending too well.

But... well, in my opinion, 40k (and Fantasy) are both games for children in their current forms. Young boys are GW's target audience at the moment, since they're the best demographic for the 'spend a lot of money all at once' cash grab (apparently). The ruleset is complicated (as opposed to being complex), with special rules all over the place - something that children love. Not to mention the fact that most games need no more tactical know-how than 'shoot the anti-tank gun at the tank'.

Is the game 'childish'? Eh? I certainly wouldn't want someone under the age of, say, 16 to be looking though the Daemons books.

The odd thing with this logic is that it implies that GW is totally out of the loop.

See, targeting kids directly was something that was a good idea like 10-20 years ago.

But the entertainment industries has long realized that the kid of yesterday are the young adults of today. The average 'videogamers' is 35 years old and has been playing for at least 12 years. The gaming industries has adapted to this and you'll notice that while game with more 'kid like' aesthetic (such as Mario, Sonic, etc) still exist and can still be sucessful, they are not the industrie powering behemots they used to be.

Why?

Because while a kid can beg his parents for extra money to buy something, the young parents can just go out and buy it themselves. Even more so are young males in their late 20s early 30s - we're talking young professional, who are out of school and have no family to speak off (i.e. No kids) - that's a huge amount of disposable income right there.

And beside, by their nature, kids tend to want stuff that isn't designed for them - look at games like GTA or Modern Warfare... those are not games made for kids. But you can be sure most kids want to play them anyway.

While I hear this 'They target kids' argument a lot... I just don't see it. My gaming club barely has any kids in it. I think this might be an holdover idea from older gamers, who themselves were kids when they started... because of it is true, than it's rather worrysome.

People aged 11-16 are, from what I've seen, definitely the target audience. At my local GW (Watford) at least three quarters of the people who go there, myself included, are young teens. The fluff is also definitely geared towards a younger mindset, a.k.a. it's completely ridiculous.

And the WHFB stuff isn't?

I think the targeting of kids comes more from the marketing side of things more than the 'game'. It really is a complex game and there are so many rules to remember that it is practically impossible for even mature veteran gamers to remember them all. If the game rules were designed to target kids, the rules would be far more simple.

I think GW sees 40k as a way of getting kids to buy 'toys' after being sucked in by the fluff and likely buy an army's worth of minis before losing interest. My guess is most of them probably play no more than 10 games and probably don't finish painting the army. The game, however, is for the veterans, those who remain customers for longer than a year.

People who try to claim that the game system is 'childish' are simply projecting their own insecurities onto something other than their own system. As another poster said above, it all comes down to playing with toy soldiers, but not everyone is comfortable with this fact.

TrollPie wrote: The fluff is also definitely geared towards a younger mindset, a.k.a. it's completely ridiculous.

Maybe I am wired wrong, but it was in my teenage years, that I most abhorred any kind of tongue-in-cheek or over-the-top and obsessed myself with gloomy, gritty Death-Korps-of-Krieg-style-flavoured past-times which seemed to speak perfectly to my moody pubescent mind. Not to mention delving into hours of random research to bring "realism" to my game.

As I grew older, got a job, mortage, house and family, I learned to not take everything so god-damn serious and to enjoy Space-Elf-Wizards on flying bikes, gaudily coloured power-armour and copious amounts of skulls everywhere precisely for the escapist outlet it provides.

TutorialBoss wrote:I think the targeting of kids comes more from the marketing side of things more than the 'game'. It really is a complex game and there are so many rules to remember that it is practically impossible for even mature veteran gamers to remember them all. If the game rules were designed to target kids, the rules would be far more simple.

No, the game is not 'complex' - it's complicated. The rules are simple - no range bands for shooting, no modifiers for movement, no cross-fire or defensive fire or opportunity fire.

Zweischneid wrote:

TrollPie wrote: The fluff is also definitely geared towards a younger mindset, a.k.a. it's completely ridiculous.

Maybe I am wired wrong, but it was in my teenage years, that I most abhorred any kind of tongue-in-cheek or over-the-top and obsessed myself with gloomy, gritty Death-Korps-of-Krieg-style-flavoured past-times which seemed to speak perfectly to my moody pubescent mind. Not to mention delving into hours of random research to bring "realism" to my game.

As I grew older, got a job, mortage, house and family, I learned to not take everything so god-damn serious and to enjoy Space-Elf-Wizards on flying bikes, gaudily coloured power-armour and copious amounts of skulls everywhere precisely for the escapist outlet it provides.

You and me... when I started, I played a gloomy/dark harlequin/eldar force (this was way back before dark eldar existed) and was all into the "realistic" and authentic

...now I play Ultramarines and Orks and see it an outlet from the serious instead of a plug into the serious.

infinite_array wrote:

TutorialBoss wrote:I think the targeting of kids comes more from the marketing side of things more than the 'game'. It really is a complex game and there are so many rules to remember that it is practically impossible for even mature veteran gamers to remember them all. If the game rules were designed to target kids, the rules would be far more simple.

No, the game is not 'complex' - it's complicated. The rules are simple - no range bands for shooting, no modifiers for movement, no cross-fire or defensive fire or opportunity fire.

This is where I think the "childish" label comes from... so its not Star Fleet Battle Systems (AKA spreadsheet in space) or Flames (less childish 'cause its history )

I like my genetically engineered super human killing machines from space.... thank you very much

Take warmachine - its a complex game, with many abilities that allow you to interrupt another players turn, or force them to act out of turn and so and so forth.

It can be difficult to learn the full ruleset, and being that the rules are extremely well written, rules queries are fairly rare. It takes time to learn and win.

40k has always had a loose ruleset. 2nd ed was really one of my favourite versions. 3rd ed dumbed the game down a lot, striped out a lot of complexity.

More and more the rules are tending towards giving marines everything xenos had unique and removing those rules from xenos. Living metal gone from necron, but storm raven is still immune to melta for instance.

The 40k stories are getting more and more over the top, Draigo anyone? These stories are aimed at getting teen boys to buy as these are the stories that many are attracted to.

So yes, I believe that 40k is aimed at children, and my enjoyment of the game is frequently soured by facing grey knights/space wolves/blood angels/imperial guard. It can still be fun, but I just know that no matter how well I play, there are some things I can not stop as my army book has no counter at all.

Maybe these days. I started out about 10, maybe 11 years ago when I was around 9/10, and the fluff seem to have gotten brighter, well, a bit less dark anyway. The rules seem to be getting a little bit complex, but less complicated, if you catch my drift. The models though, I can't tell, some days I look around bleating on about none of this crap back in my day ect. But then other days I see a kid placing out his LotD squad with no care and a crappy paint job and just think "Wait 'til you're older boyo, you'll appreciate the terror in those guys alot more when you've woken up with your pants on fire at your best friend's going away party."

So overall, I'd say yes and no. It's still geared for all ages, it's child accessible (Well, early teens at least) But as you get older, you can fully appreciate it all, so you keep interest as you grow.

Painting 28mm figures, putting them on a board, drinking beer/soda and eating doritos while you 'play-fight'.

I'm pretty sure the purist wargamers are pulling a "pot calling a kettle black" situation. WH40k is sneered at by the old heads more than you might know. Was at Cold Wars in PA last year and you wouldn't believe the gakky comments and overall distaste some the 'elites' showed towards 40k players.

Funny thing? I started my wargaming with 1700 era naval and WWII ground fighting.

I was playing 2nd editon regularly from about 13 onwards, I don't recall it being *too* complex though it was involved. The game today is very much geared towards young teens being able to grasp it.

The thing to remember is that something being 'suitable for children' doesn't mean it is 'childish'.

I think the current rules are a lot simpler than they were but they aren't childish. I do think some of the fluff however seems immature or adolescent in the way that it is written.

Hmm, warhammer 40 k being more childish? Well I am 13 so i can't say whether it is or is not.

Though, the other (2) younger gamers at my flgs are pretty "mature"

40k without a doubt is one of the more easier games to get into than WHFB is, but I got into fantasy first because my dad has been playing this since it first started as just a roleplaying game. He had so many models he one day just took me downstairs when he thought I was old enough and point at a model. I pointed at a lizard, so I started out playing with lizardmen. I am 16 now, still a devote fantasy player, but eventually decided to expand my horizons. 40k in a rules sense is much more simpler than fantasy. I eventually just gave up on denying its existence just a few weeks ago xD I used to DESPISE this game because it lacked logic IMO. "oh I shoot a lascannon at your guy, but your in the woods so you live on a 4+." 0.0 uhhh....you never should live from gettin SHOT BY A LASER. But eventually I decided screw it if I can live that easily why the hell not give this a shot? so all in all, GW aims towards my age group (high school kids, some middle school if they are rich/smart enough to catch on), and its equally balanced by showing the races and how they all relate to a teenagers interests, wether it be from halo to mythical creatures like dragons elves dwarfs and such

Currently they're not childish but have more children than most other games like FoW or Hordes. Maybe 5 or 10 years it will be too advanced for children. Now background thats a different story. I think the fluff or 40k is too advanced or maybe even brutal for children. Give a chaos book to a 10 year old and he'll crap his pants.

TrollPie wrote:The fluff is also definitely geared towards a younger mindset, a.k.a. it's completely ridiculous.

Ridiculousness is not solely the province of the young. The fluff is comically over-the-top in many ways, but kids aren't the only ones who can appreciate funny, silly, or just Rule-of-Cool. Besides if someone does their job and takes care of their extra-professional responsibilities who can begrudge them a little time to play a silly game.

And the crowds that I hear most of this "Derp, 40k es 4 the kids" crap out of are the warmahordes and battletech fans. I'll let you in on a little secret: half of the playerbase for those games play 40k too, it's the ones that don't that make the biggest and most annoying noise. And if one of those games topped the industry, this thread would be happening on their boards, and some amongst our number would throw out the claim that battletech is for kids.

Finally to Quote C.S. Lewis: “A children's story that can only be enjoyed by children is not a good children's story in the slightest.” and “Some day you will be old enough to start reading fairy tales again.”

ironhand45 wrote:. I think the fluff or 40k is too advanced or maybe even brutal for children. Give a chaos book to a 10 year old and he'll crap his pants.

I didn't xD I picked up the hordes of chaos book and read all the fluff. I walked up to my dad and said "Dad, why can't more armies be like this? They get the job done right! With bunches of killers who won't stop until everything is dead!" My mom thought I would be traumatized! Such a memory but yeah some children will find it scary I will never deny that fact, but a lot of it will intrigue them.

ironhand45 wrote:Currently they're not childish but have more children than most other games like FoW or Hordes. Maybe 5 or 10 years it will be too advanced for children. Now background thats a different story. I think the fluff or 40k is too advanced or maybe even brutal for children. Give a chaos book to a 10 year old and he'll crap his pants.

It won't be too advanced for children any time soon because that's not the direction the game has been heading in for the last two decades. As fro the fluff, well it seems violent but it's also been sanitised with the more adult references taken out. No more do you see books published with "mature readers only" stickers on them.