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I am playing with tyranids for a real challenge and I am going to try and hit some tournaments with them and do well (hopefully). Here is the list I have come to.

Hive Tyrant = 240
-wings
-toxin sacs
-Scything Talons
-lash whip and bonesword

Tervigon = 195
-Catalyst
-toxin sacs
-adrenal glands

Tervigon = 195
-Catalyst
-toxin sacs
-adrenal glands

10 Termagants = 50

10 Termagants = 50

9 Genestealers = 153
-toxin sacs

2 Zoanthropes = 120

2 Hive Guard = 100

2 Hive Guard = 100

16 Gargoyles = 96

Trygon = 200

total = 1499 points

I have tried to place enough synapse so comfortably cover the whole for where needed. The 2 tervigons are to advance together hold objective and 1 is back up synapse if the other dies. The zoans and HG are too follow up behind a wall of termagants with a cover save. Gargoyles are a meat shield for flyrant and hopefully i can deepstrike trygon in range on flyrant synapse. The units like gargoyles and tervigons can fulfil multiple roles where required. I understand this list is balanced and I am trying to achieve a 'general' list that works well against all armies if played well. Are there enough models in this army to start with? Is there enough synapse? 8 genestealers (they usually die after the 1st combat so 9 is as good as 10)? Please feel free to critisise this list, i am open to suggestions with regards to unit size and concentration. Fire away...........

Seems a decet list. I'd want to see AG on the trygon and possibly devourers on the tyrant. You can afford to drop a brood of gants and run a tervigon as an HQ here.

Hive Tyrant = 255
-wings
-toxin sacs
-TL Devourer
-lash whip and bonesword

Tervigon = 195
-Catalyst
-toxin sacs
-adrenal glands

Tervigon = 195
-Catalyst
-toxin sacs
-adrenal glands

11 Termagants = 55

10 Termagants = 50

8 Genestealers = 136
-toxin sacs

2 Zoanthropes = 120

2 Hive Guard = 100

2 Hive Guard = 100

14 Gargoyles = 84

Trygon = 200

total = 1490 points

I have freed up some points for AG but wouldnt TS be better (re-rolling to wound)?

Furious charge (AG) getting I5 on the charge and strength 7 is far better than poison 4+. MEQ are I4 so getting to strike first is valuable. With S7 you aren't likely rolling too many 1's anyway

obimarleykenobi wrote:I have freed up some points for AG but wouldnt TS be better (re-rolling to wound)?

Toxin Sacs on most monstrous creatures are never a good choice.

Str 4 with toxin sacs vs T 4 is a 75% chance to wound.
Str 5 with toxin sacs vs T 4 is a 75% chance to wound.
And so on.

Str 5 without sacs vs T 4 is ~66% chance to wound.
Str 6 without sacs vs T 4 is ~84% chance to wound, and it never gets better.

Since most MCs have Str 6 or more, you are lowering your chances to wound if you take Toxin Sacs.
The only reason to do so would be if you also have Rending Claws - but MCs ignore armor already, so that'd also be a waste of points.

hmmmmm I see, so they are good on genestealers because str4 vs. t4 is more likely than str6 vs. t4 situation. I think I was too hung up on the re-roll to wound. I suppose the extra +1str on charge is better for smashing vehicles up. Thanks. So-

Hive Tyrant = 255
-wings
-AG
-TL Devourer
-lash whip and bonesword

Tervigon = 195
-Catalyst
-TS
-AG

Tervigon = 195
-Catalyst
-TS
-AG

11 Termagants = 55

10 Termagants = 50

8 Genestealers = 136
-TS

2 Zoanthropes = 120

2 Hive Guard = 100

2 Hive Guard = 100

14 Gargoyles = 84

Trygon = 210
-AG

total = 1500 points

So this is more effective then?

Much more so- some big guys for target saturation, some solid objective holders, a rush of winged death lead by a much more ably equipped tyrant. Pretty solid all round in my opinion- and not too many repeated units too- always nice to see.

cheers. I like taking units that can fill multiple roles. I am going to build this list and maybe visit some ToS in nottingham and might try somehing more local also.

rigeld2 wrote:

obimarleykenobi wrote:I have freed up some points for AG but wouldnt TS be better (re-rolling to wound)?

Toxin Sacs on most monstrous creatures are never a good choice.

Str 4 with toxin sacs vs T 4 is a 75% chance to wound.
Str 5 with toxin sacs vs T 4 is a 75% chance to wound.
And so on.

Str 5 without sacs vs T 4 is ~66% chance to wound.
Str 6 without sacs vs T 4 is ~84% chance to wound, and it never gets better.

Since most MCs have Str 6 or more, you are lowering your chances to wound if you take Toxin Sacs.
The only reason to do so would be if you also have Rending Claws - but MCs ignore armor already, so that'd also be a waste of points.

while i agree Toxin sacs are wasted on TMC's. I cant stand for this incorrect math.

12x Str 4 hits without Sacs against T4 (wounding 4+)= 6 wounds or 50%
12x Str 5 hits without Sacs against T4 (wounding 3+) = 8 wounds or 67%
12x Str 6 hits without Sacs against T4 (wounding 2+)= 10 wounds or 83%
12x Str 7+ is the same as Str 6.

12x Str 4 hits with Toxin sacs against T4 (re-rollable wounds 4+)= 9 wounds or 75%
12x Str 5 hits with Toxin sacs against T4 (re-rollable wounds 3+)= 10.64 wounds or 87%%
12x Str 6 hits with Toxin sacs against T4 (re-rollable wounds 2+)= 11.32 wounds or 94%
12x Str 7+ is the same as Str 6.

With the math above Toxin is actually "better" than adrenal glands in terms of wounding, but the reason AG wins out is the effect versus vehicles, because mech is the more popular meta. Also the initiative really helps for models like the Tyrant, if it or its guards have whips or Carnifexes with frag spines reducing the enemy in cover to I1 while AG brings the attacking Nid up to I2

mech meta eh?? hive guard, hive guard, hive guard. BTW how do hive guard hold up against dark eldar venom spam lists?? Also how do they do at catching skimmers in general?

obimarleykenobi wrote:mech meta eh?? hive guard, hive guard, hive guard. BTW how do hive guard hold up against dark eldar venom spam lists?? Also how do they do at catching skimmers in general?

DE can easily Wreck Nyds. Best bet i've found is this.

Keep you HG's deployed towards the centre of the table so they can more easily corner fast units. Outflank with 1-2 units of Genestealers to keep the skimmers afraid to hang around the edges of the table too much. This leaves little safe room for Ravagers and the like.

In some cases versus pure mech DE, I Gargoyle Screen and Bring 1 Tyranofex. it at least has the range to keep hitting them and with cover saves from the gargs it can live a few turns.

Karnac wrote:12x Str 4 hits with Toxin sacs against T4 (re-rollable wounds 4+)= 9 wounds or 75%
12x Str 5 hits with Toxin sacs against T4 (re-rollable wounds 3+)= 10.64 wounds or 87%%
12x Str 6 hits with Toxin sacs against T4 (re-rollable wounds 2+)= 11.32 wounds or 94%
12x Str 7+ is the same as Str 6.

With the math above Toxin is actually "better" than adrenal glands in terms of wounding, but the reason AG wins out is the effect versus vehicles, because mech is the more popular meta. Also the initiative really helps for models like the Tyrant, if it or its guards have whips or Carnifexes with frag spines reducing the enemy in cover to I1 while AG brings the attacking Nid up to I2

Your math is based on an incorrect assumption - you roll to wound at a 4+ all the time with toxin sacs, rerolling that 4+ if your STR is equal or higher than the toughness of your target.
Toxin sacs are never better than a 75% chance to wound.

rigeld2 wrote:

Karnac wrote:12x Str 4 hits with Toxin sacs against T4 (re-rollable wounds 4+)= 9 wounds or 75%
12x Str 5 hits with Toxin sacs against T4 (re-rollable wounds 3+)= 10.64 wounds or 87%%
12x Str 6 hits with Toxin sacs against T4 (re-rollable wounds 2+)= 11.32 wounds or 94%
12x Str 7+ is the same as Str 6.

With the math above Toxin is actually "better" than adrenal glands in terms of wounding, but the reason AG wins out is the effect versus vehicles, because mech is the more popular meta. Also the initiative really helps for models like the Tyrant, if it or its guards have whips or Carnifexes with frag spines reducing the enemy in cover to I1 while AG brings the attacking Nid up to I2

Your math is based on an incorrect assumption - you roll to wound at a 4+ all the time with toxin sacs, rerolling that 4+ if your STR is equal or higher than the toughness of your target.
Toxin sacs are never better than a 75% chance to wound.

Really? I thought if your Strength would do better than the poison at wounding than you would use the strength value. Similar to the concept of how invulnerable saves work. You use the 2+ save on termie armour unless the lesser choice (the 5+ invulnerable) is the only option that will work.

Karnac wrote:Really? I thought if your Strength would do better than the poison at wounding than you would use the strength value. Similar to the concept of how invulnerable saves work. You use the 2+ save on termie armour unless the lesser choice (the 5+ invulnerable) is the only option that will work.

Page 42 BRB. Left side, Poisoned weapons "They do not rely on a comparison of Strength and Toughness to wound - they always wound on a fixed number"

^^ This

Making AG so much better. Again remember you get I5 and MEQ are I4 making all the difference when facing troops.
You are still dishing out a lot of wounds as 1's will be rare for the most part and no armour saves aloud. AG all the way.