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Hey so im starting up a Deathwing Army and am wondering what kind of terminator weapons loadout would be the best. I know everyone is a big fan of TH/SS with CMLs but does anyone ever use the standard PF/SB ones? Maybe with an assault cannon or chainfist?

Never use standard PF/SB terminators, they almost never earn back the points, I like running a mix of hammer/shield and twin claws myself, chainfists are nice against heavy meq but useless everywhere else. I like Assault Cannons but they are only good for nids and orks, other then that the CML is the best.

Some people advocate all TH/SS with 1 CML, but if you run that across your entire army then you run into issues because your anti infantry firepower is terrible. In practice you will rarely need more than 2 Storm Shields to absorb anti tank/plasma shots (you still have the 5++ or cover if you need to) and indeed most Assault units. You maybe take 1 Chainfist to hurt Land Raiders or 1 LC guy for some more anti infantry in assault but the rest do fine with Storm Bolters to give you an ability to hurt infantry from range when you need to.

Since my army is currently small I was thinking of running 2 squads of TH/SS with CMLs and then have a squad of all LC with Belial in a Land Raider. Im not sure how I feel about mixing as it will allow me to be ok against most things, but not really good against one thing.

Billagio wrote:Since my army is currently small I was thinking of running 2 squads of TH/SS with CMLs and then have a squad of all LC with Belial in a Land Raider. Im not sure how I feel about mixing as it will allow me to be ok against most things, but not really good against one thing.

Sounds pretty good, what type of lr is it?

I got beat by TH/SS + CML DW last night. I've seen the same set up, different player, take a couple RTTs this year. My DE pretty much bounced off it and was out shot by it, and I had 24 lances in the list. Last night my other army, lash+Oblit - PlamsaCannons scattered more than average, and I was only able to eat Bel, his squad, another and 3/5 of two others.

SB/PF simply makes no sense, without the 3++ to deal with plasma fun (lash + Oblit-plasCans) or lances, Nob power toys, MCs, Frost Weps and myriads of other armor ignoring nonsense. It really doesn't make sense to field such a high points/per model army without that kind of complete coverage.

Sounds like an insurance commerical.

Dibs on "Invulnerable Storm Shield" Insurance!

Billagio wrote:Since my army is currently small I was thinking of running 2 squads of TH/SS with CMLs and then have a squad of all LC with Belial in a Land Raider. Im not sure how I feel about mixing as it will allow me to be ok against most things, but not really good against one thing.

I would strongly recommend that you DON'T do this, you want all your units to be able to take out anything (its half the advantage of Deathwing). If you make your units highly specialised like that then countering your army becomes much easier, with no Thunder Hammers at all you are incredibly vulnerable to Dreads, can't threaten vehicles in general and are much less of a threat to other heavy hitting assault units (like Nobz and other higher T units/low invulnerable). Sure you can take one unit with a larger number of Claws if you want them to be an assault unit, but at least have 1-2 guys with TH/SS in there so you can handle everything.

@ Brotherrekose. I'm very surprised that a DE list would bounce off a Deathwing that badly, 24 Lances easily kills a squad of TH/SS Deathwing a turn, without even accounting for any Venoms or Blasters. Unless its 2500+pts that should see you wipe out the vast majority of his army (rare to see much more than 6-8 squads of Deathwing). As a Dark Eldar player I fear lists with Storm Bolters far more than I do list which are purely TH/SS, otherwise the second the CML dies (from allocation) you can move on to the next one since its completely useless unless it catches you (which with Dark Eldar shouldn't happen and they still need 6's anyway). The last time I played a pure TH/SS list I basically got to the point that I could freely get my stupidly squishy 5 man Warrior units out (which normally die the turn after they disembark) just to add a couple of Splinter rifle shots, because his ability to kill infantry outside of combat was basically non existent.

Honestly how many armies do you see that have single units which can put 4+ AP2 wounds on a Terminator unit per turn? And of those how many are going to last more than a turn in the face of the Terminator return missile barrage? Remember that you always have cover as well if you need it. The reduction in durability is pretty minor and more than made up for by the increased ability to deal with hordes and just infantry in general.

Powerguy wrote:@ Brotherrekose. I'm very surprised that a DE list would bounce off a Deathwing that badly, 24 Lances easily kills a squad of TH/SS Deathwing a turn, without even accounting for any Venoms or Blasters. Unless its 2500+pts that should see you wipe out the vast majority of his army (rare to see much more than 6-8 squads of Deathwing).

He had a dakka pred and a Vin at 2k. Pretty much every volley brought down a venom, raider or ravager. The girls had to foot slog after Turn 1. I made some cover, some FFields, but not enough. 10 skimmers, and 3 to 4 down or stunned a turn, with a straggling venom, stunned or wep destroyed, piffing about. Once the wyches were raiderless, it was down hill from there.

Maybe is was a fluke. If I'd gotten a proper Alpha Strike with two wyche crews assaulting one or two DW units, then things mighta been better. Been quite some time so the details are fading from memory.

Powerguy wrote:As a Dark Eldar player I fear lists with Storm Bolters far more than I do list which are purely TH/SS,

Yup. GK lists.

Powerguy wrote:otherwise the second the CML dies (from allocation) you can move on to the next one since its completely useless unless it catches you (which with Dark Eldar shouldn't happen and they still need 6's anyway).

And that was tough to get the Wound Allocation to wrap around as I just wasn't getting enough wounds on him, or the CML simply made its saves. A very frustrating game.

Other games, healthy venoms would simply pour wounds on.

Back to DW:Billagio, I own a lot of old school 25mm based termies. Pretty much all SB/PF. There isn't any incentive in me to run them WYSIWYG. If I ran them, they'd be all TH/SS + 1 CML. No question about it.

Remulus wrote:

Billagio wrote:Since my army is currently small I was thinking of running 2 squads of TH/SS with CMLs and then have a squad of all LC with Belial in a Land Raider. Im not sure how I feel about mixing as it will allow me to be ok against most things, but not really good against one thing.

Sounds pretty good, what type of lr is it?

Its a regular one. But I only play against my friends really so they wouldnt have any problem with me proxying it as a LRC (which I prefer)


@brotherkrose I am leaning towards assault termies at this point and TH/SS is at the top of my list I suppose! As I said to Remulus above its really only in friendly games (especially with this army) so if I really need to I can proxy them as LC or pf/sb if I think they wont have much ap2 as we are not huge wyiswyg sticklers.

@Powerguy Ill prob mix in a few sb/pf guys in my army if I need to. I do try to avoid it since I want a primarily assault army but taking a squad of standard guys cant hurt I suppose. When you are DE how is storm bolters better against you. I mean yeah your transports are paper, but is massed sb fire that effective against them?


for anyone curious ill mainly be playing against tau, necrons, tyranids and meq

Billagio wrote:Its a regular one. But I only play against my friends really so they wouldnt have any problem with me proxying it as a LRC (which I prefer)...

...When you are DE how is storm bolters better against you. I mean yeah your transports are paper, but is massed sb fire that effective against them?


for anyone curious ill mainly be playing against tau, necrons, tyranids and meq

Just so you know, the regular Land Raider cannot carry Belial and the 5 termies. Termies take up 2 transport slots (so a squad and any character is 12 slots) , and the Land Raider only has 10. It'll have to be a Crusader. Of course, if you prefer that, and your friends don't mind proxies, than no harm no foul.

Storm Bolters wreck DE (as well as hordes, like Orks and Nids, and stuff like Guard, and most Eldar) because their AP 5 (negating almost all of their Armor) and have 2 shots a piece at 24 inch range. Having just 2-3 SB firing at a squad can make the difference in trimming down Wyches (which will stall you SO bad in assault) and taking many squads to a minimum threat level. That AND the ability to glance the poor DE's vehicles is just icing on the cake.

I, personally, stand by having some SB in each squad (MAYBE outside of Belial's command group) simply for 2 reasons. 1) It gives you a much viable option against many other armies. Trust me, you want to widdle down a 30 man Ork horde before it collides with you. And even though it's not great against Space Marines, it can still be the edge you need. Focus fire a devastator squad down, or just soften up a big unit before assaulting can be just what you need to wreck 'em.

Billagio wrote:
@Powerguy Ill prob mix in a few sb/pf guys in my army if I need to. I do try to avoid it since I want a primarily assault army but taking a squad of standard guys cant hurt I suppose. When you are DE how is storm bolters better against you. I mean yeah your transports are paper, but is massed sb fire that effective against them?

The general idea is to have all your units capable of doing everything, one of the biggest strengths of Deathwing is that they are completely customisable and you can make every unit capable of long range anti tank (CML), short ranged anti tank (S8 in assault, Chainfists) and both ranged and assault anti infantry. The thing is with 5 man units is that even if you go for a full on assault unit you will still run in to specialised assault unit which can easily beat you (even if its just standard TH/SS Terminators from nilla Marines, since they can go up to 8 strong from a LRC and beat you with numbers). As flamingwalnut mentioned, it might not seem like much, but across your entire army 2 Storm Bolters per unit adds up to at least 9 wounds per turn (6 units of DW isn't really unreasonable) on most infantry which makes a huge difference once you get in close.

Storm Bolters provide an additional annoyance factor against DE, because every Lance that you can shake is one which isn't coming back and killing a 40pt model. However the main point is that without them you have almost no anti infantry outside of assault, to the point that units which are normally considered throw away/dead the second they lose their vehicle (usually scoring units taken just to make the vehicle scoring) are capable of getting out and throwing a few extra shots at the Terminators because you can't effectively kill them in return unless you fire your whole army at them (which is a good trade even ignoring the fact it would mean ignoring all the vehicles).

Alright you've convinced me to mix them in and see how they do! They don't get +1 attack for 2 cc weps right?

Having two LCs will give you an additional attack.

As for the original question. Running full TH&&SS squads is actually quite horrible. That said, I usually run my command squad as full TH&SS since its nice to have one mean beatstick unit. Im not sure why people are so affraid of getting shot up with AP2 weapons, its not like a 4+ coversave is infinitly worse than a 3++ save. The flexibility you give up in order to turn that very occasional 4+ save into a 3++ save is not worth it. Besides, with a mixed setup you can play wound allocation shenaningans (which admitedly is not a massive thing on a 1w model unit but it can still be nice).

My squads usually look something like this, 1xTH&SS, 1xLC, 1xCML&SB, 1xCF&SB, 1xPW&SB. Gives me 6 str 4 shots and 2 MLs/turn and on the charge 7 str 4 I 4 PW attacks and 9 str 8 I 1 pw attacks.

alright. Ill prob pick up a squad of standard guys on ebay for cheap and mix them in and see how they do against my opponents.

Those cyclone missile launchers do have the option to fire frags as well as kraks. If you have 5 or 6 squads of termies, each with cyclones, that's a lot of blasts that can help to thin out hordes. They may only be AP6 but anything with a 5+ save isn't odds on to make that save anyway and the 6+ saves can't do anything to save them. They're not the best anti horde option out there but if you focus fire a squad you can reduce it's numbers quite quickly.

Against Ork vehicles with a KFF you may find it harder to thin out the numbers before they get to you but, again, those cyclones are pretty handy anti tank and you'll have plenty of shots so you'll get through the KFF sooner or later. With Deathwing, I would always recommend some Land Speeders with multi meltas, too - many people say typhoons - as they are great for zooming ahead and hitting side armour.

There's no doubt that a huge horde is tricky for DW with just TH/SS + cylone squads but it's not the uphill struggle that I'm reading it is here. I certainly wouldn't run squads with storm bolters as they don't cause so many kills after rolling to hit and wound. Plus they are only 24" range so you're letting your opponents close in before you can cause any damage. Cylcones hit 48" away so you start causing damage from turn 1.

I've also found that even the 3+ invul saves repel a surprising number of attacks in CC and the 2+ keep you alive for a decent amount of time against regular weapons. Admittedly, if your 5 man DW squad gets locked in CC with a large group of orks or nids, it's not going to come out of it unscathed but it will keep an enemy squad locked in combat for at least two turns so they're no threat to anything else and won't be a big deal after the combat is over - it'll be severely weakened. I always keep my squads relatively close by for counter assault support. If you position yourself right you won't have to be worried about getting multi assaulted.

But, there's no doubt that you need to thin out squads before you get into CC and cyclones help you to do that from turn 1 which storm bolters can't do. From an all comers point of view, it's much better to have the added durability of the storm shields and the heavy hitting of the thunder hammers on all your termies imo.

Two points which I haven't seen above.

Stormbolters have to shoot at what the CML shoots at. It is pure luck whether the target is in range and can be hurt by a stormbolter. No stormbolters please.

Landraiders are not a good idea. They reduce your model count even further. You can not provide enough cover and support for it not be a huge target. One raider will not make your army actually mobile, you will still be outrun anyway you play. Also they stop you taking 3 vindis or 3 preds which is really big. No landraiders please.

ColdSadHungry wrote:Those cyclone missile launchers do have the option to fire frags as well as kraks. If you have 5 or 6 squads of termies, each with cyclones, that's a lot of blasts that can help to thin out hordes. They may only be AP6 but anything with a 5+ save isn't odds on to make that save anyway and the 6+ saves can't do anything to save them. They're not the best anti horde option out there but if you focus fire a squad you can reduce it's numbers quite quickly.

Against Ork vehicles with a KFF you may find it harder to thin out the numbers before they get to you but, again, those cyclones are pretty handy anti tank and you'll have plenty of shots so you'll get through the KFF sooner or later. With Deathwing, I would always recommend some Land Speeders with multi meltas, too - many people say typhoons - as they are great for zooming ahead and hitting side armour.

There's no doubt that a huge horde is tricky for DW with just TH/SS + cylone squads but it's not the uphill struggle that I'm reading it is here. I certainly wouldn't run squads with storm bolters as they don't cause so many kills after rolling to hit and wound. Plus they are only 24" range so you're letting your opponents close in before you can cause any damage. Cylcones hit 48" away so you start causing damage from turn 1.

I've also found that even the 3+ invul saves repel a surprising number of attacks in CC and the 2+ keep you alive for a decent amount of time against regular weapons. Admittedly, if your 5 man DW squad gets locked in CC with a large group of orks or nids, it's not going to come out of it unscathed but it will keep an enemy squad locked in combat for at least two turns so they're no threat to anything else and won't be a big deal after the combat is over - it'll be severely weakened. I always keep my squads relatively close by for counter assault support. If you position yourself right you won't have to be worried about getting multi assaulted.

But, there's no doubt that you need to thin out squads before you get into CC and cyclones help you to do that from turn 1 which storm bolters can't do. From an all comers point of view, it's much better to have the added durability of the storm shields and the heavy hitting of the thunder hammers on all your termies imo.

No offence, Im just curious. Have you guys thar are proposing 5 TH&SS squads actually ever played such an army or are you just theory hammering? After the FAQ I was all for pure TH&SS squads but I noticed (Quite soon I might add) that it just doesnt work.

As for the bolded parts, 2 frag missiles (assuming you manage to hit 2 models/frag) are as good as 3 SBs at killing infantry (assuming cover, otherwise the SBs are better). So with with 3 SBs in a squad you gain a 100% increase when dealing with non FnP infantry. SBs have an effective range of 30" that is not something to be sneezed at. You can always deploy quite aggresivly and then back up once the enemy is closing in giving you more time to thin the horde.

You do realize that you can put a MM on a Typhoon speeder, or are you suggesting that one takes MM/HF speeders for the same cost as a MM/Typhoon speeder?

As for MFletchs remark about the LRs, I have to agree with that. I run my DA with 3 Vindicators and I cant really see myself without them. They are, just as the DW squads, capable of dealing with anything (except MCs) and a DW based army a much needed boost when it comes to dealing with FnP and even hordes

Riddick40k wrote:Never use standard PF/SB terminators, they almost never earn back the points, I like running a mix of hammer/shield and twin claws myself, chainfists are nice against heavy meq but useless everywhere else. I like Assault Cannons but they are only good for nids and orks, other then that the CML is the best.

Really?
The DW player I know, uses standard PF/SB terminators because they do make their points back. Having the extra shooting is very important tactically.

In my eyes, you need a mix. Take a couple of TH/SS per squad, meaning you have a couple of models with the better save, but you also still have the storm bolter shots as well.

tedurur wrote:

No offence, Im just curious. Have you guys thar are proposing 5 TH&SS squads actually ever played such an army or are you just theory hammering? After the FAQ I was all for pure TH&SS squads but I noticed (Quite soon I might add) that it just doesnt work.

As for the bolded parts, 2 frag missiles (assuming you manage to hit 2 models/frag) are as good as 3 SBs at killing infantry (assuming cover, otherwise the SBs are better). So with with 3 SBs in a squad you gain a 100% increase when dealing with non FnP infantry. SBs have an effective range of 30" that is not something to be sneezed at. You can always deploy quite aggresivly and then back up once the enemy is closing in giving you more time to thin the horde.

You do realize that you can put a MM on a Typhoon speeder, or are you suggesting that one takes MM/HF speeders for the same cost as a MM/Typhoon speeder?

As for MFletchs remark about the LRs, I have to agree with that. I run my DA with 3 Vindicators and I cant really see myself without them. They are, just as the DW squads, capable of dealing with anything (except MCs) and a DW based army a much needed boost when it comes to dealing with FnP and even hordes

Yes, I have played such an army. I have never run 5 man squads with PF/SB combos but I did run a mix of 3 x TH/SS and 2 x LC before I switched to 5 x TH/SS (I've always had 1 cyclone in a squad). It's amazing just how quickly you find yourself with only three terminators left - the TH/SS ones. Also, if you're footslogging (which a DW army is very likely to be doing) your LC aren't doing anything when not engaged with the enemy. Your TH/SS termies are using their storm shields to help them close the gap or sit back defending an objective. Basically, they are surviving a lot more.

I can also tell you that those 48" cylones are fantastic at immobilising/destroying transports. It's great to be able to bust open transports and watch space marines drop to those S8 AP3 hits when they are out of their vehicle. You can do this from a safe distance with a cyclone missile launcher. If your opponent can sit back and pummel you with AP2/AP1 it's just way better to have the 3+ invul than the 5+. I find that I survive a good number of hits before I lose the kind of numbers that worry me.

Once you're actually in CC, there are just too many armies that hit with power weapons at above I1 to not take storm shields. I have been pleasantly surprised by just how durable the SS make them.

Storm bolters are good weapons if you can take plenty of them - think 10 GK - but a terminator squad with 3 of them just won't frighten anybody. Basically you've got to move to within 24" to get 2 wounds from 6 shots which will be saved by all but the cheapest horde units; it's just not worth it when you consider that you also only have a 5+ invul save yourself. In a small elite army, which DW most certainly are you need to be as tough as possible to kill. It's the TH/SS + cyclone set up that make DW viable.

I was thinking of adding vindicators to my army, but I cant decide between them and predators (or even what kind of pred).

As for the terminators, I can see taking a few sf/sb ones against a horde army, but against meq or something I may just stick for std th/ss. But ill pick up some pf/sb ones and see how it plays out. Like i said, i only really play friendly games so im not too worried.

I typically run all TH/SS or 4 TH/SS and 1 CF/SB.

I try not to list tailor at all but sometimes the amount of mech faced demands that chainfist. So more often lately I find myself with 25 guys with thunderhammers and 5 with chainfists.

I have some trouble with Dark Eldar but that's definitely not from the lances. It's the amount of shots they can put out in a single turn that give my dice fits.

I usually go with 2X Stormbolter/ Cyclone squads and a TH/SS Belialwing with Apothecary and banner in small point games. The shooting is useful tactically, while Belial can DS in and assault next turn. Risky, but if he hits on target then it really piles the pressure on the opponent, assuming he lands in the right place. Not tried a Land Raider as of yet.
It probably isn't the best unit, but the point I'm trying to make is that shooting is useful tactically.

On the heavy support front, Vindicators are great vs MEQ, and are probably better at taking down vehicles than Predators, though I may be wrong. Not to mention they are cheaper too.

And in any case, just remember the Deathwing mantra:
FOCUS your fire
Assault on YOUR terms
SMITE in the Emperor's name