Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This has been an idle thought bouncing around in my head for the past couple of days.

But what if by some freak occurrence a hive fleet was seperated from the the hive mind (I'm not sure what event would do this, perhaps some massive psychic sundering of the neural connection) but then due to the rapid evolution and adaptation of the tyranids they become more and more aware until a new hive mind evolves and becomes a rival to the original.

I started wondering about this after seeing a thread talking about the fall of the imperium, making me think about how eventually all civilisations end up changing and then dying and making way to new civilisations, but we tend to view the tyranids as something that will always be there with the same targets. It made me wonder if the hive mind itself evolves in its thinking, and how it keeps the tyranids under it's control from ever evolving awareness beyond its own desires.

Thoughts?

Denied the Hive Mind, the tyranid hordes fall upon each other in an orgy of carnage and slaughter, having no other drive but their insatiable hunger.

Thus, the Hive Mind keeps itself safe from any potential rivals. Denied its control, the Tyranid destroy themselves.

Failsafe nom nom mechanism

"The hive mind" isn’t just one hive mind. Each hive fleet is controlled by its own hive mind because each has its own queen. (or is it queens?) Different have fleets act very differently and each have their own colours and signature creatures. Otherwise in game terms it would be really hard to explain the fluff of why two Tyranid armies were fighting each other.

If a queen dies then a psychic shriek is let out that are heard by the other queens causing them to give birth to a new queen. The tiranids that were previously under the control of that queen will start to slowly find their way back to the nearest queen and be absorbed into her fleet.

If a section of the fleet gets so far away from its queen then it will start haphazardly finding its way back. Though this is under the assumption that they are in ships.

I'm not quite sure how they would act on land. There are cases of tyranids becoming part of the ecosystem on plaints like the Kraken of Fenris and the Catachan Red Devil.

But what would happen if there were synapse Nids there? A hive tyrant is meant to be easily as intelligent as any human, if not more so, they just think in a radically different way "You could teach a lion to speak, but you would still never understand it." Perhaps they would take control and keep some sort of cohesion, otherwise the different broods would all split off from each other and become separate species again, as they were before the tyranids absorbed their DNA.

Another thing to consider is the Old fluff before they had Queens and has sort of been integrated into the new fluff. The reason we have synapse creatures is as their name suggests they are partt of a greater mind. Not that they are subservient to it but an integral part. The hive mind is the sum total of thoughts of every criter from guants up to ships. Some can send this signal and others can only receive. Think of it a bit like the borb (Before they added in a bloody queen which rather ruined it for me by the way). If we could hear the hive mind it might say in a billion voices, "We are the Tyranids".

So with this I'd say if there are enough 'Transmitter' critters around they would become thier own little hive mind that simply cant talk to the rest of the brain untill they find thier way back to a queen.

A good analogy perhaps. Think of the queen not as the controlling mind just one of the bigger bits of it. Synapse creatures just as that, synapses. Gausnt and rippers could maybe be your skin. Automatic information but without any reasoning.

TheAlmightyPillock wrote:"The hive mind" isn’t just one hive mind. Each hive fleet is controlled by its own hive mind because each has its own queen. (or is it queens?) Different have fleets act very differently and each have their own colours and signature creatures. Otherwise in game terms it would be really hard to explain the fluff of why two Tyranid armies were fighting each other.

If a queen dies then a psychic shriek is let out that are heard by the other queens causing them to give birth to a new queen. The tiranids that were previously under the control of that queen will start to slowly find their way back to the nearest queen and be absorbed into her fleet.

If a section of the fleet gets so far away from its queen then it will start haphazardly finding its way back. Though this is under the assumption that they are in ships.

I'm not quite sure how they would act on land. There are cases of tyranids becoming part of the ecosystem on plaints like the Kraken of Fenris and the Catachan Red Devil.

But what would happen if there were synapse Nids there? A hive tyrant is meant to be easily as intelligent as any human, if not more so, they just think in a radically different way "You could teach a lion to speak, but you would still never understand it." Perhaps they would take control and keep some sort of cohesion, otherwise the different broods would all split off from each other and become separate species again, as they were before the tyranids absorbed their DNA.

Another thing to consider is the Old fluff before they had Queens and has sort of been integrated into the new fluff. The reason we have synapse creatures is as their name suggests they are partt of a greater mind. Not that they are subservient to it but an integral part. The hive mind is the sum total of thoughts of every criter from guants up to ships. Some can send this signal and others can only receive. Think of it a bit like the borb (Before they added in a bloody queen which rather ruined it for me by the way). If we could hear the hive mind it might say in a billion voices, "We are the Tyranids".

So with this I'd say if there are enough 'Transmitter' critters around they would become thier own little hive mind that simply cant talk to the rest of the brain untill they find thier way back to a queen.

A good analogy perhaps. Think of the queen not as the controlling mind just one of the bigger bits of it. Synapse creatures just as that, synapses. Gausnt and rippers could maybe be your skin. Automatic information but without any reasoning.

uuummmm...... no.

The hive mind is the collective concience of EVERY tyranid organism. This is shown by the other fleets coming soon after behemoth did. Queens have no direct control over other tyranid. They are a conduit for the hive minds synapse. The only Tyranid organism with even a little bit of self thought is the Swarmlord and even still the hive mind could just turn it off.

The Almighty Pillock does appear to be almost completly incorrect.
Though the last few paragraphs were okay...

TheAlmightyPillock wrote:"The hive mind" isn’t just one hive mind. Each hive fleet is controlled by its own hive mind because each has its own queen. (or is it queens?) Different have fleets act very differently and each have their own colours and signature creatures. Otherwise in game terms it would be really hard to explain the fluff of why two Tyranid armies were fighting each other.

If a queen dies then a psychic shriek is let out that are heard by the other queens causing them to give birth to a new queen. The tiranids that were previously under the control of that queen will start to slowly find their way back to the nearest queen and be absorbed into her fleet.

If a section of the fleet gets so far away from its queen then it will start haphazardly finding its way back. Though this is under the assumption that they are in ships.

I'm not quite sure how they would act on land. There are cases of tyranids becoming part of the ecosystem on plaints like the Kraken of Fenris and the Catachan Red Devil.

By 'queen' you're referring to 'Norn Queens', they aren't the hive mind. They are great synaptic links to the hive mind, but they aren't actually the hive mind. The hydra effect is correct - if a norn queen is killed, the resulting psychic scream will cause nearby ships to calve and create new norn queens. This isn't because they are leaders, but because they are the reproducers of the fleet. If they don't calve new queens, then they can't spawn new creatures.

The link to Kraken and Catachan Devils is pure speculation - official speculation started by GW, but even they haven't given any confirmation that they were once from a hive fleet.

TheAlmightyPillock wrote:But what would happen if there were synapse Nids there? A hive tyrant is meant to be easily as intelligent as any human, if not more so, they just think in a radically different way "You could teach a lion to speak, but you would still never understand it." Perhaps they would take control and keep some sort of cohesion, otherwise the different broods would all split off from each other and become separate species again, as they were before the tyranids absorbed their DNA.

Not true. Think of synapse as a wireless network handing out instructions, the synapse creatures are wireless routers. They link to the network, which tells them what needs to be done, and relay how to do it to the lesser creatures. They are also still bound to it, they aren't given the freedom to say 'screw the hive mind, I'm going mercenary'. Some, like hive tyrants and dominatrices, have a degree of freedom in how they act. They are the generals on the ground, and they direct the forces, so they need to be able to think creatively in order to think tactically.

TheAlmightyPillock wrote:Another thing to consider is the Old fluff before they had Queens and has sort of been integrated into the new fluff. The reason we have synapse creatures is as their name suggests they are partt of a greater mind. Not that they are subservient to it but an integral part. The hive mind is the sum total of thoughts of every criter from guants up to ships. Some can send this signal and others can only receive. Think of it a bit like the borb (Before they added in a bloody queen which rather ruined it for me by the way). If we could hear the hive mind it might say in a billion voices, "We are the Tyranids".

So with this I'd say if there are enough 'Transmitter' critters around they would become thier own little hive mind that simply cant talk to the rest of the brain untill they find thier way back to a queen.

This does kind of happen. Like the Anphelion Project. The Tyranids were separated from the hive mind, and evolved their own synapse creatures and the like to resestablish contact with it. Once there is synapse supprt, they are linked back to the hive mind. They don't need a norn queen near them, they just need synapse creatures.

If they're too far away from the hive mind for even synapse creatures to hear, they go feral until they are back in range and can ask for a lift off planet.

TheAlmightyPillock wrote:A good analogy perhaps. Think of the queen not as the controlling mind just one of the bigger bits of it. Synapse creatures just as that, synapses. Gausnt and rippers could maybe be your skin. Automatic information but without any reasoning.

And norn queens are just synapse creatures. They don't 'lead' the Tyranids, the collective consiousness of the race does.

Exactly to all of the above, my question of the hive mind though is this. Is it collective like gork and mork having formed from so many orks existing. So does the hive mind now actually exist somewhere? Or is it literally just a consciousness. Its just........ a kind of outer body type thing for the nids

We have no idea, there's no in-universe, or even above-game meta-knowledge, about what the Hive Mind actually is. It could be a super-psychic Master Bug somewhere beyond the rim of the galaxy. It could be just the gestalt psychic field of the mass of Tyranid organisms itself

We're not told.

I always got the impression that the Hive Mind was intangible and without form. A collective psychic consciousness of the Tyranid race. It's ability to be everywhere at once and seen in the lowly Ripper to the Swarmlord seems to indicate this.

Harriticus wrote:I always got the impression that the Hive Mind was intangible and without form. A collective psychic consciousness of the Tyranid race. It's ability to be everywhere at once and seen in the lowly Ripper to the Swarmlord seems to indicate this.

I thought this to, but somebody very psychicaly strong gazed upon it briefly. I forgot the name but he is well known. So if he could actually see it...... that means it must be somewhere.

So ok there is only one hivemind? It may or may not be a physical being? Sorry I don't know diddly bout nid fluff. i was bout to ask if there was one big bug and why no one looked for it but I spose thered be no finding it for whatever reason like Russ or whatever.

Just because something exists on a psychic level doesn't mean it exists in realspace as any tangible object. Chief Librarian Tigurius of the Ultramarines established a psychic link to the Hive Mind and survived, and seems to continue to make use of this ability to predict where hive fleets will attack and such. That does not make the Hive Mind a singular creature, it just makes whatever part of the Hive Mind he tapped into a psychically-sensitive thing.

Psychics can sense its presence. It's the shadow in the warp. But there is no Hollywood super-bug at the head of it all that can be destroyed death star style. The hive mind is the collective mind of all the synapse creatures.

Ah ok, I learned something knew. thanks guys

... or so the theory goes. Again, it's a viable theory, but we don't know for sure. Everything about the Hive Mind is couched in in-universe conjecture and opinion, and there's no "GM's Note" or other, out-of-game explanation for what it really is.

GW might keep it as it is, might explain what it is, one way or the other, or might come up with something entirely off-the-wall for it in a future product. Who knows?

Yes, they could be Necroned!

If Ward does 6th Ed. Nid Dex I can see him making the Hive Mind a Starship Troopers brain bug, he can't really do things like "collective psychic entity".

Probably.