Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

EDIT: Decided this thread would work far better as an idea splat for unorthidox guard tactics.

Share your (or read my continual drivel) of how to make horribly unorthidox guard tactics. Using none-standard methods!

So... I'm going to be trying something in the far or near future. A method to make Rough Riders fairly entertaining and useful. I have 10 in the pipe so far so I might as well make 20 more right?

Before people leap out heroicly to tell me how much better Valk/Vend/Hellhound/Sentinels/Anythingbutroughriders... I will say now: I will not take any. I am crazy.
I am crazy.

The plan...

In one corner, we have the marvelous HQ duo...
-Creeeeeeed, in a Chimera, with Kell. Safely tucked in a Chimera with an Astropath.
-Lord Commissar with 2 power fists.
-5 Priests.

In the other corner... we have for troops:
1 -A cheap gunline that exists purely to hold my lines and provide cover saves for all 30 rough riders. If points permit, some HWeps. (To lazy to point it all up right now, and depends on game.)

2 -Al'rahem with a blob platoon of 50 guardsmen. Tuck away some special weapons with Meltas and the like in here.
^^^ 5 Sgts and 5 Commissars with: Power Weapon, Sgt. with Melta Bombs, everyone takes Kraks.
^^^Attach 2 priests.

3 -A cheap blob platoon, similar to above. Using Creed to flank all 54 models.
^^^ 5 Sgts and 5 Commissars with: Power Weapon, Sgt. with Melta Bombs, everyone takes Kraks.
^^^Attach 3 priests and Lord Commissar.

In fast attack, 30 rough riders, with Melta Guns possibly, as I actually expect them to survive.

With remaining points, whatever you can fit in.


The tactic?
While there are flaws and this tactic heavily depends on an enemy who will fall prey to it... it is flexible...

First, when our reserves come in, we try our darnest to get one platoon on each side, or, both on one side. In doing so, we move 6'' onto the board. Melta what we can, then engage EVERYTHING in melee. At once.

While if you are fighting a melee heavy army, this is risky... you ARE entirely throwing the enemy's plans into dissarray. Tactical placement of Melta Bombs/Guns practically garuntees the enemy will lose a vehicle or two if he castles up.

The goal here is to tie up as much enemy as possible, doing as much re-roll to wound damage as possible in one turn. While the rough riders, coming across 3 points in the field, engage the most lethal enemy units. At the very least, you will have made your enemy go "wait you are doing WHAT?"


I do not stand by my tactic as being "lol win!" just a "haha oh wow..." - but you have to admit...it does increase the odds of Rough Riders doing more damage... Alternative, replace a platoon with 10 ogryns and the Lord Commissar... Creeding them in is nasty, but FAR more expensive.

I think this could do well because people would do a double-take when fighting it

I use RoughRiders. They are very good at counter charging. I leave them in reserve. I have 10, but I usually run them in two squads of 5.

Decided to quickly make a base cost for this tactic.

255 Points for HQ Creed & Kell w/ Astro, bare bones

115 Points For Lord Commissar with carapace, 2 fists, melta bombs (just in case I really wanna do that...)

300 Points for 5 Priests (120 alternatively for just 2.)

140 Points for Quad Melta Al'Rahem PHQ
575 Points for 10 Pwep/5 melta commissar-sgt wonder team.

30 Points for basic PHQ
575 Points for 10 Pwep/5 melta commissar-sgt wonder team.

315(105x3) Points for 10x3 bare-bone rough riders.

2305 points.

Leaves 195 points for basic armor, another platoon or whatnot.

Might drop Creed & 2nd platoon.... but yeah, still lol tactic that -might- could work.

Armored Company. I dont care if its outdated/not tournament legal!

Billagio wrote:Armored Company. I dont care if its outdated/not tournament legal!

Still doable.

1 Primarus Psyker
2 Vet Squads in Chimeras
as many tanks as you can fit. Functions the same way.

1.) Where are your priests going? They can't keep up with the Rough Riders and they can't outflank with alrehm. If you do put priests with rough riders, they can't fleet and they can't charge 12".
3.) Furious Charge does not work on rough riders. Pg. 5 of the main rulebook faq, end of the first column.

I think that covers most of your list as being unplayable as written. Your anti-tank is lackluster. If an enemy can take on an ork horde, he can certainly murder this list.

Irdiumstern wrote:1.) Where are your priests going? They can't keep up with the Rough Riders and they can't outflank with alrehm. If you do put priests with rough riders, they can't fleet and they can't charge 12".
3.) Furious Charge does not work on rough riders. Pg. 5 of the main rulebook faq, end of the first column.

I think that covers most of your list as being unplayable as written. Your anti-tank is lackluster. If an enemy can take on an ork horde, he can certainly murder this list.

1: I never said Furious Charge on the RRs. Ever. Creed is to provide flank for blob squad.

2: I am partly right it seems. Creed gives it to a single unit, an IC is a seperate unit. Al'rahem as well, an IC isn't part of his platoon, it says his platoon not anything attached to it, if we wanted to get rules savy.

3: I don't need anti-tank, Melta guns and bombs will do, flanking from both sides of the map as it stands. That is my anti tank. Even without priests or Fistissar if I am wrong on the rules.

But I can still do this, sir.

Al'rahem's flanking platoon. Either 1 Priest or Dual Fist Commissar is given out-flank as well via Creed. Attach to squad upon flanking in. Problem solved, costs a LOT less, and gives me room for anti tank.

As for dealing with an Ork Horde, sure, that would ruin my day... but we're not using orks now are we?

JoeyFox wrote:
1: I never said Furious Charge on the RRs. Ever. Creed is to provide flank for blob squad.

Then why would you take Kell if you aren't giving orders? If you just have Creed sit in the back, give them a lascannon and call it a day or something. If you intend to outflank both platoons, then there's very little chance of him ever being in range to contribute to the platoons.

JoeyFox wrote:
3: I don't need anti-tank, Melta guns and bombs will do, flanking from both sides of the map as it stands. That is my anti tank. Even without priests or Fistissar if I am wrong on the rules.

You have a 44% chance of both platoons showing up on the side you want. On a standard 6 by 4 table, with an opponent deploying centrally, he has an entire 3 foot section where he is safe from any anti-tank on your first strike, or any attacks at all, actually. So, your opponent will get the full force of his vehicles against your rough riders turn 1, and then can deal with the platoons turn 2. I don't think it's all that hard to deal with 30 guardsmen on cavalry bases if there are no other threats on the table.

JoeyFox wrote:
But I can still do this, sir.

Al'rahem's flanking platoon. Either 1 Priest or Dual Fist Commissar is given out-flank as well via Creed. Attach to squad upon flanking in. Problem solved, costs a LOT less, and gives me room for anti tank.

I don't see why you feel the need for the priest. Re-rolling one turn of to-hit rolls for a platoon . . . is it worth the (minimum) 135 points you're spending on it? The lord is a waste of points anyway.

JoeyFox wrote:
As for dealing with an Ork Horde, sure, that would ruin my day... but we're not using orks now are we?

What I said was that anyone able to deal with an Ork Horde (Lets say a conservative 120 orks with kans out front, around 1000 points base), which most take all comers list should be able to, will eat your list no problem.

Iridiumstern has pretty much nailed it. You can't give Scout to a platoon via Creed, only one unit, and not rough riders obviously (that would be sweeeet). The priests need to be given scout to outflank with Al-Rahem. I've been runnning Al-Rahem for about 5 games and, whilst he can really upset people's plans, he rarely does anything effective and can end up 4 feet away from the actual battle, with a shed load of points not being used at all. Because you're on foot you often don't get to charge as your opponent is normally more mobile, meaning your priests are wasted. I know, because I've tried hard to make a similar list work, and it just don't!

Rough riders though, at 105 points for 10 men, are well worth it as they can toast whatever they hit, and have long enough charge range to be able to get the charge off. Similarly Marbo, at 65 points, is always worth it because 2 times out of 3 he will nuke more than his points worth. Both units tend to die next turn but they are nice and cheap.

You know joey, this is semi similiar to what I already run

-Creed w/ grenade launchers or sniper rifles to keep him out of danger, vox
++Creed provides furious charge when I need it, and go to ground/ect orders when I don't

-2x command squads with melta, vox
-2x, 30 man blobs with power weapons, commisar, autocannons, vox
++The assault core, after the first or second turn of shooting these move up

2-4x 20 man blobs with lascannons, vox
++these lay down lascannons and provide LOS cover for creeds boys, much more resiliant than HW squads they usually last all game, the small extra price is worth the 25+ lascannon shots

/sometimes/ some autocannon HW Squads, or melta SWS squads

is the main force, from here I will add some of the following
-Marbo
-stormtroopers w/ plasma
-al'harim w/ 2x 20 man melta power blobs, command squads w/ melta, sws's with melta
-melta command squads w/ 30 man power blobs+autocannons


Now then.
-I dont usually use creeds outflank, al'harim is so much better because he absulutely blankets one side of the board in melta, creed is in there for safe, reliable orders and he's easy to hide with a 24" order range
-I really need those first 1-2 shooting phases with all those autocannons and lascannons to remove things I dont want to deal with, if the other guy full reserves i'll move up, otherwise all those guns and the resiliance of 100+ bodies in cover makes for lots of destroyed transports and dead infantry. Against assaulty armies I can hold the line and when they reach the powerblobs I should have enough of an advantage to deal with it.
-marbo and stormtroopers are mostly for contesting objectives, Im thinking of including rough riders or a valkerie to do the same, since a foot army that doesn't move for 2 turns has mobility issues.
-my local meta isn't WAAC and I screw around alot, but no one can really handle this army very well, though our overall plans are different, i think this is the way you want to go with your shooting core
-I try to avoid deploying more than 100-150 guys in my zone to keep templates from being very effective.

First off: I feel like I come across being an argumentative ass. I'm not trying to be, its just I thought it was rather clear with the topic setting and introduction that
A: This is a thread on tactics that are not likely to work, but are fun to use. If I wanted efficiency and safety, I would run hellhound/devil dogs. Psyker battle squads. Vendettas. Just like every other copy-paste boring run of the mill guard list. That isn't unorthidox....
B: I understand this.
C: Yes I was wrong initially on IC flanking, it was light and I was dozey to medicine. My mistake.



1: Kell and Creed to pop off ranged orders to RRs like move move move from safety of chimera.
3: Never tell me the odds.
4: I'm a man who will gladly run 10 Ogryns. I also stated I'm crazy. Justification of points isn't needed her, hence Unorthidox. If this were orks, I would be justifying 30 Flashgitz right now.
5: If they do, I will laugh and shake their hand. Then find someone else to try to surprise, before the list gets over-used. Its a one-shot wonder, for laughs, but still can work given the right situation.

Grund: I might try that

You can't give Scout to a platoon via Creed, only one unit, and not rough riders obviously (that would be sweeeet).

Al'Rahem MUST use it, SEPERATE of Creed. So yes, I can.
Storm Troopers can take it.
Harker provides it if I recall.

Good luck man.
I dont think your list is necessarily horrible, but it lacks alot of tuning, you really are blowing a ton of points on silly things like 2 power fists on one guy and 5 commisars in one squad
Take your concept and tune it over a series of games and I think you can have a pretty comical force that can win half its games at least

the "gimmick" i want to build a new army around are detpacks, something about a 6" range weapon that can scatter 8 inches appeals to me

Grundz wrote:Good luck man.
I dont think your list is necessarily horrible, but it lacks alot of tuning, you really are blowing a ton of points on silly things like 2 power fists on one guy and 5 commisars in one squad
Take your concept and tune it over a series of games and I think you can have a pretty comical force that can win half its games at least

the "gimmick" i want to build a new army around are detpacks, something about a 6" range weapon that can scatter 8 inches appeals to me

100-130pt Valkyrie/Vendetta + a 55pt Demo SWS.

A 155-185pt scatter mini boom gun stick ship. Multiple by lots. If you think of a fish of fury, replace str 5 shots with a str8 pie and replace SMS with triple TL-lascannons! Profit? 740pts for 4 of these, needing to field two platoons!

So, thinking her, may be cheaper to use vets in this infantry+valk combo, as you don't need the dead weight in IP's.

My IG list isn't really geared for anything except maybe close combat.


I have a platoon of okay-ish guys, middle/short-ranged weapons like grenade launchers and meltaguns
and super close combat weapons like power swords and fists

I like my primaris psyker and vet squad with all three doctrines though the demo charge really makes my day
whenever i wipe out terminators and other things with it

planning to have another vet squad with all three doctrines too

I don't really care about strategy, i like charging all of my guys in real epic-like.

CubeRootRotheo wrote:
I don't really care about strategy, i like charging all of my guys in real epic-like.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner

Also like that set up.

Son, I like your style.

You know... if you make the consideration, you could stuff 9 scout sentinels in your Fast Attack slot instead of Rough Riders. Both are unloved orphan children, but if you're doing a ton of flanking then flanking with 9 mobile weapons platforms that can go to melee in a pinch is a real cool; I wouldn't worry too much about them dying because your opponent is also having to deal with over a hundred outfflanking troops

Either way, I wish you great luck in your games!

Talore wrote:Son, I like your style.

You know... if you make the consideration, you could stuff 9 scout sentinels in your Fast Attack slot instead of Rough Riders. Both are unloved orphan children, but if you're doing a ton of flanking then flanking with 9 mobile weapons platforms that can go to melee in a pinch is a real cool; I wouldn't worry too much about them dying because your opponent is also having to deal with over a hundred outfflanking troops

Either way, I wish you great luck in your games!

I could do 6 sentinels, as I already have 10 DKoK horsement, and 6 sentinels is a lot cheaper than 20 more.

Unorthodox guard is the best kind of guard. Here's a list for thought, never tried it myself considering I lack the models but it is something I have to try now that I thought it up:

1. Straken, Blobs!, Blobs!, Blobs!, 3 squads of 6 Ogryn in Chimeras, 9 scout sentinels for the lolz
2. Rush up the center, outflank sentinels
3. ????
4. Profit!?!

9 scout sentinels with autocannons and HK missiles gives a butt-load of missiles for your alpha strike and then a serious quantity of Dakka to follow up.


I am collecting parts for a maximum autocannon army.

Serious maximum.

Autocannons in vet squads in autocannon Chimeras.
Autocannon HWSs
Mixture of Hydras and LR Exterminators.
9 autocannon scout sentinels.

That's codex legal with the exception of the autocannon Chimeras.
If I play Armoured company rules my opponent will just be drowning in dakka.

rob-or-ross wrote:9 scout sentinels with autocannons and HK missiles gives a butt-load of missiles for your alpha strike and then a serious quantity of Dakka to follow up.


I am collecting parts for a maximum autocannon army.

Serious maximum.

Autocannons in vet squads in autocannon Chimeras.
Autocannon HWSs
Mixture of Hydras and LR Exterminators.
9 autocannon scout sentinels.

That's codex legal with the exception of the autocannon Chimeras.
If I play Armoured company rules my opponent will just be drowning in dakka.

You forgot Autocannon HQs. Sounds like a fun list to fight.

I've been having a really good time witha 1500 point version of Stelek's "Radius of Force" list:

http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2011/05/imperial-guard-jargon/

My version @ 1500:
CCS, 2 melta, standard, chimera
PCS, 3 flamer, chimera
2 Infantry squads, melta, chimera
SWS, 3 melta
2X5 stormtrooper, 2 melta each, 1 with chimera
2 Devil dogs
2 LR Exterminators

Everything that can have a hull heavy flamer has one.

The SWS jumps into the stormtrooper chimera turn 1 (or borrows one from an infantry squad). STs deepstrike. Chimeras advance to midfield with devil dogs behind, Russes behind that. Russes and devil dogs open transports, and chimeras (plus the guys inside) gun down the contents.

No valks/vends. No hydras. No manticore. No large blasts.

WhiteWolf01 wrote:Unorthodox guard is the best kind of guard.

I've always liked an assault-oriented guard. I've been running 10 rough riders in 1500 pt games of late and like them so much that I bought a second ten. Haven't gotten around to assembling them yet, though. I really don't understand all the hate against rough riders. If used properly they can be quite devastating and demoralizing to the enemy. So what if they're a "glass hammer"? They only cost 105 pts for 10 of them!

Flavius Infernus: I like your list. How does it work? I was going to build something similar but was convinced that this was suicide by others.

9 Leman Russ Demolishers, 9 Multilaser SS, 2 basic vet squads and a ccs without upgrades= 1990 pts.

Not realistic but pretty unorthodox

NWansbutter wrote:

WhiteWolf01 wrote:Unorthodox guard is the best kind of guard.

So what if they're a "glass hammer"? They only cost 105 pts for 10 of them!

Seriously thinking "Tournament" for one moment (in my own thread, I am a hypocrite!) - 105 points for 10? Yeah devil dogs blah blah blah...but if you have a functional army at 1395...would it -really- hurt to take 10 rough riders?

I'm loving some of the armies and ideas in this thread so far.

NWansbutter wrote:

Flavius Infernus: I like your list. How does it work? I was going to build something similar but was convinced that this was suicide by others.

Stelek's explanation is really good (follow the link when you get the chance--it's a good read). But to summarize and and add my own thoughts...

The problem with valks/vendettas is they're only AR12 and they sit up above everything where they can be easily shot. If you slow down to shoot, you lose your cover save and so it's unusual to see vendettas last more than a turn or two after entering the table.
The problem with manticores or other long-range artillery is that everybody has something that deepstrikes or outflanks in order to handle these threats. It's immobile if it wants to get max firepower, so it sits off in an isolated corner and gets a couple of shots off, then snickgrot or whatever comes in and kills it.

So the idea is that by having everything move forward 6" each turn, and by spreading the threats around and making nothing into an obvious threat, you get more survivability, and hence more incremental damage over the course of the game, which is where guard do well.

1. Even before thinking about this army, it's important to recognize that a meltagun has a 12" range, not a 6" range as many people are in the habit of thinking. Even at max range, str8 and AP1 is deadly to enemy transports, especially rhinos, but also storm ravens, chimeras, vendettas and other medium vehicles like dreads. Also it's a decent anti-infantry weapon. So the effective range of the melta squad in a chimera is 18" from the hatch, or roughly 14" from the bow of the vehicle. With 3-4 triple-melta chimeras moving side-by-side, you create a really deadly kill zone in that range band.

(Think of the chimeras as being like the pawns in a chess game. Individually they're not especially impressive and they don't have a long threat range, but moving in a wall they mutually support and create a barrier that enemy units can't enter without dying.)

2. Mech IG are really lacking in the midrange department. We have great short-range melta, and great long-range artillery. But we don't really have anything like a multi-melta inside a rhino or on a speeder--which are advantages in that grey area between about 15" in front of your chimera wall out to about 30" in front of the wall. Devil dogs are really the only thing that fits in that niche. You don't need half-melta range to be effective, especially against rhinos or the other AR12 vehicles listed above. Just lob the shot at range 24" and, if it hits, you'll get a kill usually.

So the chimeras make a wall of AR12 scoring units, and the devil dogs creep behind them. The DDs are prime targets, but they always get cover saves behind chimeras. You can put them right up there bow-to-stern, since emergency disembarkation is actually kind of an advantage for your chimera passengers (no pin test required and can act normally in the next player turn). This formation gives you deadly anti-troop melta and lasgun fire out to about 14", then deadly melta cannon fire out to about 30"

(Usually what happens in my experience is the melta cannon opens the transport, and the chimera passengers fire out the hatch at the passengers.)

3. In the early game, the executioners are the only thing you have that can open rhinos in the 30"-54" range band. They continue to be your go-to unit for transport busting for the first 1-3 turns. Then, in the midgame and endgame, they polish off those last few guys in the weakened infantry units. Massed AC and HB fire is actually better at this than a template weapon like a battle cannon because the template never scores more wounds than there are models left in the target unit, but a mass of AC and HB fire can force each model in a small unit to make multiple saves, which is how guard kill marines. The russ chassis is more durable than artillery chassis, so it gives you some rearguard and side cover. Most of the time, people don't even bother shooting at them.

4. There's always something--a predator, a AC dread, a land raider full of terminators--sitting on the other side of the table plinking at your chimeras or threatening to assault your tank line. With airborne assault, a unit of stormtroopers can drop in with deepstrike reroll and usually kill whatever by shooting it point-blank in the back. It's a suicide mission, but for 105 points it's worth it. And you get a chimera for your SWS. If the enemy is coming to you anyway or there's no target of this type, you can always infiltrate them or outflank in their chimera to create backfield threats.

Individually the parts of the army are unorthodox and may seem weak, but they mesh together.

I've run a similar list as well, and I will admit that it is fun to play. But there are some glaring weaknesses to it as well. For starters I've always had trouble hitting with the devil dogs. At BS3 and being a small blast, it is all or nothing. At that point it's no longer up to tactics on how well you do, rather it's the roll of the dice. The other flaw is that it seems to be weak against outflankers. Maybe it's just me, but I play my friend who runs an eldar list and always brings his war walkers to the table with the 2 scatter lasers. Those things eat chimeras alive. I know it's meant to be an unorthodox list, but I felt I should point out some weaknesses that you have to take into account before fielding it. Regardless, it is a fun list and would recommend it.

Unorthodox Guard: Stealth-themed

I'm just getting off the ground, and I'm able to get to 500 points, but that's about it. So for now, I've got three veteran squads, each with a single sniper rifle and an autocannon or missile launcher. I have a counts-as Marbo, a CCS with either four plasma rifles or two plasma rifles and a lascannon. I also have 5 counts-as ratlings, and a scout sentinel with interchangable weaponry (an autocannon and HKM to start) Soon I'll have 3 mortar teams, 3 missile launcher teams, 3 autocannon teams, and maybe 3 heavy bolter teams and 3 lascannon teams, but nowhere to deploy them

------------------------------------------------------------------

Right now it is a dinky gunline guard list, but my plans for the future:

Hydras, Heavy Weapons teams, and Veterans with Heavy weapons + snipers + camo cloaks, all in the back and finding cover. Flavourwise they're the main team who have set up a gunline to ambush, with a single infantry squad with various weapons defending them (hiding in the grass) and acting as a screen. Ratlings will infiltrate to pick off enemies and distract them (hopefuly I can lure them into assaulting the Ratlings to prevent them from going up the middle).

A counts-as Captain Al'Rahem will be the leader of the charge. Inspired by Ailaros, Al'Rahem's team will be an assault powerblob. Tons of infantry in one group, power weapons abound. Al-Rahem's command team will have meltaguns, and there will be special weapons squads with flamers and meltaguns.

Scout Sentinels will provide mobile heavy weapon support to Al'Rahem, with him or on the other side of the board to force a pincer move (and hit delicious rear armour).

Marbo will do what Marbo does best.

If I can make them, I may assemble a Rough Rider squadron to provide some OOMPH up the front, initially running to cover before melta-bombing tanks and opening up heavy infantry and walkers alike.

If I can make artillery, I may field them. Probably Griffons, though I'm okay with any of the four, really.

Stealth Guard, what up


----------------------------------------------------

I'm considering fielding Veteran squads with camo cloaks and heavy weaponry, simply because BS 4 and delicious cover saves make them hit more and last longer. I wish you could take Veteran Heavy Weapon Squads

I may take stormtroopers, flavouring their deep striking/infiltrating/scouting and popping up out of nowhere as next-level stealth tactics. If they can crawl prone with advanced ghillie-suits, all the more awesome.

I don't really care about winning, as long as I have fun and my opponent can bask in the awesomeness that is a bunch of plastic soldiers wrapped in gauze

Heavy bolters on every squad that can take them, grenade launchers, melta bombs, infantry only.