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Tell me what ya think!

Eldrad
Farseer
-doom
-guide
-fortune
-runes of witnessing
-spirit stones

1.AvangersX10
-exarch
-twin catapults
-bladestorm
1.Wave Serpent
-Bright Lances

2.AvangersX10
-exarch
-twin catapults
-bladestorm
2.Wave Serpent
-Bright Lance

1.Fire DragonsX5
1.Wave Serpent
-shuriken cannons
2.Fire DragonsX5
2.Wave Serpent
-shuriken cannons
3.Howling BansheesX8
-exarch
-miroorswords
3.Wave Serpent
-shuriken cannons
-spirit stones

Night Spinner
-holo-field
Night Spinner
-holo-field
Night Spinner
-holo-field

Total:1998pts

Creative comments welcome!

It looks pretty good, the fatal flaw however is that you only have 2 troops.

You'll really want 4 but no less than 3 to give you flexibility in objective games.

Swaping the shees for more dire avengers is one option.

If you drop lances to scatter lasers, and fortune and warding from your seer you could squeeze in a squad of gjb for reserve. Never take more powers than you can cast on a regular seer, saves points that way.

Ya I agree, the lack of troops will kill you in 2000 pts.

Also, you should think about a camper squad for a home Objective.

Couple flaws

- as the others pointed out you are dangerous low on troops and even worse they are an offensive build so there is an even higher chance they will die. With the Nightspinners you already have good swarm fire, so you may consider dropping the DA down to 5 mans.

- Farseer power over load. Not often I say this but you wayyy points deep into Farseer powers. For dual DA bladestorm go with 2 doom/guide seers. If you take the first point and drop to 5 man units then taken just Eldrad.

- your anti-light vehcile is lacking. S Cans will lack the range to fight rhino wall and Night Spinner (while halarious when they do) aren't reliable Anti-Tank. In conjunction with the cuts from the first two points you'll want to consider upgrading the S cannons to Scatters.

- Stones on Spinner, while not essential in conjuction with holofields they make our tank horrifically annoying to tray to kill lol.

Hmm... so would this hear good:
-Farseer with only guide&doom
-Drop banshees
-Take one 5 man squad of Avangers in wave. Exarch?
-Change cannons to lasers.
-Something else?

How does this sound?
I post new version when I get moment to sneak to our computer

The only thing I would change is the bright lances to shuricannons then give them star engines, max out the banshees(they do work in tourney play), and change out 2 nightspinners for 2 fire prisms for more tank killing power. Also drop the guide on the farseer as i assume he's going with the banshees?

I run a list like this but with 3 fire prisms and 20 banshees instead of 2 fire dragons and I placed 3rd in a tourney with it.

First off you have a case of support unit overload. Farseers (and by extension Eldrad) are arguably the best support characters in the game, but without a reasonable number of units around them they just waste points without nothing to cast their powers on. At 2000pts just Eldrad is probably more than enough. I would also classify Night Spinners as support units actually, their damage output isn't amazing (except against hordes which you don't care about since you can just run away in your skimmers anyway) and in a competitive/mech environment are only really going to annoy people by forcing some terrain checks.

As other people have mentioned the other huge issue with this list is the lack of scoring units. 2 is barely enough for 1000pts, at 2000 I would always be aiming for 4 (assuming they are all mech of course, on foot you need more). The other thing is that 10 man Bladestorm units really aren't very good, 10 man Storm Squads with 2 Flamers + Destructor Warlock beats them for damage output for less points. A combination of 5 man Avenger units (cheapest scoring unit) in a Serpent/Falcon or Flamer Guardians in a Serpent is the way to go really.

For your Serpents, Bright Lances are ok but I would only take them if all the rest of your Serpents have good weapons already. EML does the job against AV12 for far cheaper and would let you take them on your other Serpents as well, Dragons can generally take care of heavy armour well enough. As a minimum all Serpent should have Scatters imo, Shuriken Cannons just have too many issues due to their range which is becoming even more of an issue with the rise of Grey Knights and Necrons (which are both very strong in the 24" range band). The other thing is that any vehicle which is going to be getting up close needs Spirit Stones. You can get away without it on Falcons, Prisms, Night Spinners and Serpents which are always going to be hanging back, since they shouldn't be in assault range of anything very often, but on Serpents carrying Dragons or Banshees being stunned for a turn will lose you the vehicle 99% of the time and for 10pts its well worth it.

You could actually drop the Holos from the Night Spinners, they can be worth it when you don't have the kind of target saturation you need to be effective, but on single weapon vehicles like Prisms and Night Spinners Holos aren't really worth it for their cost.

Basically though you have too many points tied up in your HQ and Heavy slots. Changing things around should get you at least another 2 scoring units along with 2 more Serpents worth of firepower and probably leave you points to take another heavy hitter of some sort as well.

Powerguy wrote:First off you have a case of support unit overload. Farseers (and by extension Eldrad) are arguably the best support characters in the game, but without a reasonable number of units around them they just waste points without nothing to cast their powers on. At 2000pts just Eldrad is probably more than enough. I would also classify Night Spinners as support units actually, their damage output isn't amazing (except against hordes which you don't care about since you can just run away in your skimmers anyway) and in a competitive/mech environment are only really going to annoy people by forcing some terrain checks.

As other people have mentioned the other huge issue with this list is the lack of scoring units. 2 is barely enough for 1000pts, at 2000 I would always be aiming for 4 (assuming they are all mech of course, on foot you need more). The other thing is that 10 man Bladestorm units really aren't very good, 10 man Storm Squads with 2 Flamers + Destructor Warlock beats them for damage output for less points. A combination of 5 man Avenger units (cheapest scoring unit) in a Serpent/Falcon or Flamer Guardians in a Serpent is the way to go really.

For your Serpents, Bright Lances are ok but I would only take them if all the rest of your Serpents have good weapons already. EML does the job against AV12 for far cheaper and would let you take them on your other Serpents as well, Dragons can generally take care of heavy armour well enough. As a minimum all Serpent should have Scatters imo, Shuriken Cannons just have too many issues due to their range which is becoming even more of an issue with the rise of Grey Knights and Necrons (which are both very strong in the 24" range band). The other thing is that any vehicle which is going to be getting up close needs Spirit Stones. You can get away without it on Falcons, Prisms, Night Spinners and Serpents which are always going to be hanging back, since they shouldn't be in assault range of anything very often, but on Serpents carrying Dragons or Banshees being stunned for a turn will lose you the vehicle 99% of the time and for 10pts its well worth it.

You could actually drop the Holos from the Night Spinners, they can be worth it when you don't have the kind of target saturation you need to be effective, but on single weapon vehicles like Prisms and Night Spinners Holos aren't really worth it for their cost.

Basically though you have too many points tied up in your HQ and Heavy slots. Changing things around should get you at least another 2 scoring units along with 2 more Serpents worth of firepower and probably leave you points to take another heavy hitter of some sort as well.

Some good points but I have to disagree in few things:
Firstly, I need lots of powers that this type of list would work:
-Avangers need guide&doom to do massive damage amounts with bladestorm, they kill anything in this way.
-Banshees dont need powers, but doom boosts them to deadly levels.
-Fortune is always needed, for my tanks, avangers and banshees.
Secondly, that storm guardian flamer spam wont work IMO. It is suicide unit that does little damage, but gives easy kill point.
Thirdly, holo fields save tanks and fustrates enemy. They are wery rare games if holo-fields dont save the day.
Maby you have good/bad experiences of these things but my games have shown otherwise

EML, cheaper, more versatile that bright lances... you are right! EML is much better than BL.

Thanks for tips!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks to all for tips and ideas!
Using your comments I have made second version of this list:

Eldrad
Farseer
-guide
-doom
-runes of witnessing
-spirit stones

1.AvangersX5
-exarch
-twin catapults
-bladestorm
1.Wave Serpent
-Eldar missile launcher

2.AvangersX5
-exarch
-twin catapults
-bladestorm
2.Wave Serpent
-Eldar missile launcher

3.AvangersX5
-exarch
-twin catapults
-bladestorm
3.Wave Serpent
-Eldar missile launcher

1.Fire DragonsX5
1.Wave Serpent
-scatter lasers
-spirit stones
-star engines
2.Fire DragonsX5
2.Wave Serpent
-scatter lasers
-spirit stones
-star engines
3.Howling BansheesX8
-exarch
-mirrorswords
-acrobatics
3.Wave Serpent
-scatter lasers
-spirit stones
-star engines

Fire Prism
-holo-fields
Fire Prism
-holo-fields

Total:1998pts

Comments, tips, ideas?

heh I get a giggle out of Eldar list threads, the pendulum swings back and forth because of advice base on personal experience rather then statistics.

When talking about list optimization two things matter: Synergy and Cost effectiveness. The balance you have to find is what YOU want to bring (AKA I like Banshees) vs what will do the best.

Statistically and Cost effectively speaking, Bladestorm and Banshees are both aweful, Star Engine Cost can be mitigated by prior planning and positioning, and EMLs have an awful kill ratio.

Remember that the vast majority of armor that you will go up against in 40k is 10/11 which Scatter Lasers are vastly more reliable at killing. The AV 12 area is where EML shine, but the only time those show up is other Eldar or the 1-3 Raven/Vedetta/Valk and that is what your Fire Dragons are there for. Bright Lances should be taken maybe on 1-2 vehicles IF you are feeling your ranged AT is lacking or you are light on Fire Dragons.

Spirit stones on Serpents are a 1/6 damage roll usefulness and on the arguably hardest to damage vehicle in the game, those odds for the cost aren't looking good. Play 3 games, notate how many times your Serpents (only serpents) took damage and how many times a stunned result was rolled and you will quickly find the 10 points not worth it.

Avengers and Blade storm, one of the most notorious and uncost-effective attacks in the game. #1. 10 man with Exarch, Baldestorm, and Dual ASC is the only way to kit it. Bladestorm is a force muliplier and at 5-6 models you are making an non-cost effective unit worse. So 10 man, yes, it is a giggle to hop out and fire 32 shots rerolling everything. However, realize that you are paying 272 points for that combo while eating both an HQ and Troop slot. You are also susceptible to psychic hoods, blast templates, and can only fire it every other turn, not to mention FNP gives it the finger.

Banshees are fun, but also not cost efficient. Weighing in at 187 pts for a T3 4+ unit is a little painful, but acceptable given I10 and power weapons. However Doom is a must. A banshee unit into marines without doom is a power weapon wet noodle. Yes, you bypass armor and FNP, however you lose half you attack right off the bat on the to hit and another 2/3rds on the wound. Your standard 9 banshees with swing 3 times, hit 14 times, and then wound for an abysmal 5 wounds. The return swing however against you is hitting 50% and wounding 66% leading to dead banshees. Now, you are saying to yourself, "hey with the exarch that is like 6-7 wounds and that's not bad" these are your best case scenario numbers. WS 5, T5, 2WO, or any kind of invul and now you are up a creek. Doom greatly boosts your wound percentage pushing your regular banshees into a one shooting the enemy catagory. That all being said, it doesn;t touch the elephant in the room... getting into assault. This is the huge fault of all all foot eldar Melee and is the reason they are pushed into the Meh catagory. In competitve play, your Bashee Serpent will be downed before it gets to assault, leading to dead Bashees or your opponent will deny you the assault via placement.

Fire Prisms vs Spinner... I've done that soapbox too many times. With 2 packs of fire dragons and 6 Serpents your AT won't be lacking as long as you kit it right. You need to find what balance you want though in AT vs AI.

Blue Dagger is right of course, Blade Storm and Banshees really struggle in this day and age.

They are lots of fun in casual games, but they simply don't have the point for point damage they need to do against good tournament opponents.

One additional thing that Blue Dagger didn't point out is that your Dire Avengers, after doing that mighty bladestorm, are hanging out all bunched up behind your Wave Serpent with their balls in the wind. They are literally just sitting there hoping your opponent doesn't drop blast templates on them... These are your scoring units. Having at least 152 points of t3 4+ save scoring units (and probably your Wave Serpent rear hatch exposed) is really risky. You may very well need those for objectives.

BlueDagger wrote:Spirit stones on Serpents are a 1/6 damage roll usefulness and on the arguably hardest to damage vehicle in the game, those odds for the cost aren't looking good. Play 3 games, notate how many times your Serpents (only serpents) took damage and how many times a stunned result was rolled and you will quickly find the 10 points not worth it.

BlueDagger, while I agree with your statements 95% of the time, this is the one area where I must disagree.

I find myself facing a great deal of grey knight players. In these cases, you need to neutralize the only real threat to the Mech'Dar army -- those psydreads. The most reliable method of using this is to suicide dragons to do the job. However, in doing this, you can expect that the serpents will take every bit of fire on the way in.

For those serpents, the 30 point investment of stones helps to ensure that the serpents can deliver their important package. While they only need the stones 1/6 of the time, having them is the difference between your suicide dragons killing the psydread, or having your army picked apart.

Taking the last 3 games vs., GK, in 2 of them the stones proved worthwhile. Again, this is due to the volume of fire that comes onto 2 tanks (I use Eldard, fortune 2 of them up and send 2 downstream for turn 1 and 2 to do the job).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

akaean wrote:Blue Dagger is right of course, Blade Storm and Banshees really struggle in this day and age. .

The number of armies with FNP make it underwhelming for its cost. Sure, you might kill ~4 MEQ without FNP when you bladestorm a doomed unit, but the return fire will wipe the avengers off the board. If the range on cats was 30", it might be more useful, but the way it goes today the Avengers shooting is sub-par.

Banshees have their specific uses -- such as assaulting DCA or BA, but their a one hit wonder at best. While with fleet, they have a decent assault range out of the back of a serpent, they generally die after they assault one unit, and have a hard time multi-assaulting. This means you pay over 200 points to obliterate one average unit. In the meta of MSU squads, this just is not a good tradeoff.

If banshees were more like dual-hammerhanded DCA, they would be better, but thats an unfair comparison, as dual-hammerhanded DCA are arguably the most OP thing in the game.

labmouse42 wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:Spirit stones on Serpents are a 1/6 damage roll usefulness and on the arguably hardest to damage vehicle in the game, those odds for the cost aren't looking good. Play 3 games, notate how many times your Serpents (only serpents) took damage and how many times a stunned result was rolled and you will quickly find the 10 points not worth it.

BlueDagger, while I agree with your statements 95% of the time, this is the one area where I must disagree.

I find myself facing a great deal of grey knight players. In these cases, you need to neutralize the only real threat to the Mech'Dar army -- those psydreads. The most reliable method of using this is to suicide dragons to do the job. However, in doing this, you can expect that the serpents will take every bit of fire on the way in.

For those serpents, the 30 point investment of stones helps to ensure that the serpents can deliver their important package. While they only need the stones 1/6 of the time, having them is the difference between your suicide dragons killing the psydread, or having your army picked apart.

Taking the last 3 games vs., GK, in 2 of them the stones proved worthwhile. Again, this is due to the volume of fire that comes onto 2 tanks (I use Eldard, fortune 2 of them up and send 2 downstream for turn 1 and 2 to do the job).

You have a 50% chance on Pen that your Serpents will be outright destroyed and you are worried about a 16% Chance to get stopped in your tracks? Save your Use those 30 points to upgrade 2 Dragons to Exarchs for wound allocation and you will find it much more effective in that situation lol. Psyfle Dread Answer: Prism focus beam w/ Guide, EMLs, Dragons, or Fortuned Holo Bait.

BlueDagger wrote:You have a 50% chance on Pen that your Serpents will be outright destroyed and you are worried about a 16% Chance to get stopped in your tracks? .

Another way to say that is "Is 10 points worth reducing the chance of pen rendering the unit useless from 66% to 50%?" You also need to remember that out of the barrage of psycannon fire, half the hits will be glancing. In those cases, you mitigate the chances of a neutralizing effect by 50%.

As I said. A lot of it depends on your meta. In my tourneys, I find that I face GK players in 1/2 of the games. This has caused me to build the army with GKs in mind.

On a side note, do you find that Guided Prisms or ELMs an effective answer. I find that most GK players put their dreads directly behind a razorback or chimera, giving them cover. With the 50% cover, long range shooting has just failed me in the past. That is why I do the suicide rush.

A 50% chance to down the vehicle on pen is enough at that point enough of a chance to shift to an Exarch for the wound allocation at that point anywho. On eother Pen or glance you are still spending 10 points on a 115 point tank (scatters) for a 1/6 what if when it's going go kaboom if it takes damage most of the time.

Yeah, I've faced them several times as well and between EMLs, fortune decoys, and Dragons you can deal with them. They are the single largest threat to Eldar I have seen outside of Long fangs however they are killable. If it looks like i'll be a serious issue I'll Fortune a Holo/Stone Nightspinner and Dash at their line as bait.

However, back to the main point well have to agree to disagree as I can't see the value of 10 points for a 16% outcome, especially when 50% will wreck ya to begin with.

SIde note: Psycannon fire is 16% glance, 16 %pen. 2-3 hits per guy, 1 glance or pen per guy shot.

Every time I see a list with multiple small dire avenger units a little part of me dies. There is alot more killing power with 2 full squads than there is more with 3 5man squads, even with the extra waveserpent. From how your previous list is, it seems like we have similar play styles. If you play aggressively stick with the full squads, if you like to sit back and shoot, play with the multiple small units.

There have been really good discussions about this list and Im really happy for that so thanks to all answerers!
Now I test you: can you turn over my visions...
i think that perfect tournament list is a head us!

BlueDagger wrote:heh I get a giggle out of Eldar list threads, the pendulum swings back and forth because of advice base on personal experience rather then statistics.

When talking about list optimization two things matter: Synergy and Cost effectiveness. The balance you have to find is what YOU want to bring (AKA I like Banshees) vs what will do the best.

Statistically and Cost effectively speaking, Bladestorm and Banshees are both aweful, Star Engine Cost can be mitigated by prior planning and positioning, and EMLs have an awful kill ratio.

Remember that the vast majority of armor that you will go up against in 40k is 10/11 which Scatter Lasers are vastly more reliable at killing. The AV 12 area is where EML shine, but the only time those show up is other Eldar or the 1-3 Raven/Vedetta/Valk and that is what your Fire Dragons are there for. Bright Lances should be taken maybe on 1-2 vehicles IF you are feeling your ranged AT is lacking or you are light on Fire Dragons.

Spirit stones on Serpents are a 1/6 damage roll usefulness and on the arguably hardest to damage vehicle in the game, those odds for the cost aren't looking good. Play 3 games, notate how many times your Serpents (only serpents) took damage and how many times a stunned result was rolled and you will quickly find the 10 points not worth it.

Avengers and Blade storm, one of the most notorious and uncost-effective attacks in the game. #1. 10 man with Exarch, Baldestorm, and Dual ASC is the only way to kit it. Bladestorm is a force muliplier and at 5-6 models you are making an non-cost effective unit worse. So 10 man, yes, it is a giggle to hop out and fire 32 shots rerolling everything. However, realize that you are paying 272 points for that combo while eating both an HQ and Troop slot. You are also susceptible to psychic hoods, blast templates, and can only fire it every other turn, not to mention FNP gives it the finger.

Banshees are fun, but also not cost efficient. Weighing in at 187 pts for a T3 4+ unit is a little painful, but acceptable given I10 and power weapons. However Doom is a must. A banshee unit into marines without doom is a power weapon wet noodle. Yes, you bypass armor and FNP, however you lose half you attack right off the bat on the to hit and another 2/3rds on the wound. Your standard 9 banshees with swing 3 times, hit 14 times, and then wound for an abysmal 5 wounds. The return swing however against you is hitting 50% and wounding 66% leading to dead banshees. Now, you are saying to yourself, "hey with the exarch that is like 6-7 wounds and that's not bad" these are your best case scenario numbers. WS 5, T5, 2WO, or any kind of invul and now you are up a creek. Doom greatly boosts your wound percentage pushing your regular banshees into a one shooting the enemy catagory. That all being said, it doesn;t touch the elephant in the room... getting into assault. This is the huge fault of all all foot eldar Melee and is the reason they are pushed into the Meh catagory. In competitve play, your Bashee Serpent will be downed before it gets to assault, leading to dead Bashees or your opponent will deny you the assault via placement.

Fire Prisms vs Spinner... I've done that soapbox too many times. With 2 packs of fire dragons and 6 Serpents your AT won't be lacking as long as you kit it right. You need to find what balance you want though in AT vs AI.

Some REALLy good points there! My biggest broblem is not in battlefield but when organizing army, I often forgo that tactical part.
I really admire people who manage to count or determine all these propablitys, when shooting etc.
I have to say, I cant find better Troop in mechdar armies than avangers, or?
Spirits stones are kinda backup if something goes in a way that they shouldnt.
Those propablitys often, really often dont work as they should, its always under or over.
Propablity that everything goes exactly with counted propablities is wery small...

akaean wrote:Blue Dagger is right of course, Blade Storm and Banshees really struggle in this day and age.

They are lots of fun in casual games, but they simply don't have the point for point damage they need to do against good tournament opponents.

One additional thing that Blue Dagger didn't point out is that your Dire Avengers, after doing that mighty bladestorm, are hanging out all bunched up behind your Wave Serpent with their balls in the wind. They are literally just sitting there hoping your opponent doesn't drop blast templates on them... These are your scoring units. Having at least 152 points of t3 4+ save scoring units (and probably your Wave Serpent rear hatch exposed) is really risky. You may very well need those for objectives.

This blast thing is solved with only good deployment, movement and overall gameplay.
Its really unlikely that I dont try to kill something that threatens my key units, and I always manage,
at least to shake or stun em so I can hop in wave again.

Helvost wrote:Every time I see a list with multiple small dire avenger units a little part of me dies. There is alot more killing power with 2 full squads than there is more with 3 5man squads, even with the extra waveserpent. From how your previous list is, it seems like we have similar play styles. If you play aggressively stick with the full squads, if you like to sit back and shoot, play with the multiple small units.

Hmm... again good point, my gameplay and lists are wery aggressive, even with my IG! I send version 3 soon...

Jone96 wrote:
This blast thing is solved with only good deployment, movement and overall gameplay.
Its really unlikely that I dont try to kill something that threatens my key units, and I always manage,
at least to shake or stun em so I can hop in wave again.

Its very easy to say this, and even easier to believe it. But when push comes to shove when you are playing an actual games, things seldom work out so perfectly. When you deploy your Dire Avengers out of a Wave Serpent, you need to expect some degree of return fire. Unless, of course, you are playing a brain dead opponent who puts his army into nice compartmentalized chunks for you to destroy at your leisure and have no return fire from the other chunks.

You are spending 300 points on 2 scoring units not counting the tanks. What do you do if your opponent doesn't give you an opening? Just leave those 300 points in the Serpent and not shoot? or do you take a gamble and try to minimize return fire as much as possible? You'll still probably lose a big chunk of Dire Avengers because Eldar infantry is not very durable.

If its a matter of creating the perfect tournament list... don't even think about blade stormers. I like the squad a lot, and I use bladestormers in most of my lists, but I would be a fool to not notice that they are most certainly not worth the 152 points I spend on them. 5 Dire Avengers in a Wave Serpent is much more cost effective, since really its the Scatter Laser you want.

As for the 3 DAVU Serpents w/ scatters vs 2 Bladestormers. I ask you this. When you swoop in from reserves agaisnt Space Wolves with max long fangs... would you rather have an extra scatter laser to help alpha strike the long fangs? Or would you rather have a bunch of infantry who need to get within 18 inches of one of the most deadly close range fire fight armies in the game? We are talking tournaments... right?

Helvost wrote:Every time I see a list with multiple small dire avenger units a little part of me dies. There is alot more killing power with 2 full squads than there is more with 3 5man squads, even with the extra waveserpent. From how your previous list is, it seems like we have similar play styles. If you play aggressively stick with the full squads, if you like to sit back and shoot, play with the multiple small units.

3x 5 DA + Wave Serpent w/ Scatter Lasers = 525pts

vs.

2x 10 DA w/ Exarch, Dual Cata, Bladestorm + Wave Serpent w/ Scatter Lasers = 534


Min DA units = More units, more scoring tank, more shots fired per turn, no self risk of DA getting shot up, serpent lives long due to not having to get in range, faster thanks to not having to slow down for disembark

Dual Bladestorm units = Better survivability if the unit gets knocked out of their serpent (however an offensive build so they should be seeking shooting), 1 MAYBE 2 rounds of bladestorm shooting.


It really comes down to, do you want your troops to be doing the heavy lifting? I personally leave the unit killing to my Nightspinners or Prisms then pick off the stragglers with the 20-24 shots of scatter lasers and jetbike harrassment fire..

To add to BlueDaggers point. Avenger cats just do not deliver in today's meta. Bringing 10 of them and expecting them to be critical is just a lesson is futility. :\

On that note though, the point cost above are without a Guide/Doom Farseer which is essential to have one for EACH unit of Bladestorm avengers. A guide/doom Avengers is in fact a painful hit with shear volume of wounds, however it is very cost ineffective as well as tactically limiting.

I'd take a Nightspinner + Doom for my anti-Infantry over a Guide/Doom Bladestorm avengers any day of the week.

Again I think it comes down to play tactics. The more aggressive playing needs the more impact for killing whole squads but the defensive player needs to keep them away and blast template them.

I wasn't aware there was still "agressive" Eldar builds that were still able to table anything outside of Tau and former Necrons... lol

I joke, I joke... kinda

Nah, its cool. I see how it is.

Helvost wrote:Again I think it comes down to play tactics. The more aggressive playing needs the more impact for killing whole squads but the defensive player needs to keep them away and blast template them.

I think statements like this will be a lot more accurate when the new codex comes out. The way the Eldar are today, they can be either killy or survivable.

Let me give an example. 10 fire dragons can wreck face. To make reasonable in points, you need to take 5 in a serpent, putting you ~200 points. This makes them survivable. Or you can put them on foot with an exarch and firepike for ~200 points, which makes them very killy.
If you put them in a serpent with 10 dragons brings your unit ~300 points. The problem with this is that you will be bringing 5-6 tanks in a 1750 list, Thats not enough tanks to dilute enemy firepower, which makes your army less survivable.

As such, today Eldar are stuck with being either killy or survivable. Most players choose to survive.

akaean wrote:
If its a matter of creating the perfect tournament list... don't even think about blade stormers.

I like the squad a lot, and I use bladestormers in most of my lists, but I would be a fool to not notice that they are most certainly not worth the 152 points I spend on them.
As for the 3 DAVU Serpents w/ scatters vs 2 Bladestormers. I ask you this. When you swoop in from reserves agaisnt Space Wolves with max long fangs... would you rather have an extra scatter laser to help alpha strike the long fangs? Or would you rather have a bunch of infantry who need to get within 18 inches of one of the most deadly close range fire fight armies in the game? We are talking tournaments... right?

Its a matter of making perfect tournament list with these builds.
That space wolf thing is like an two edged sword, that wave serpent is propably going to be destroyed,
if you dont mass kill those launcherers with long range fire, but when its destroyed, its less than a second, and your Dire Avangers have died because of their small size. If you dont take long range firepower, you lose, if you dont take more durable units, than 5 man, you will lose. Everything has to be in balance.

BlueDagger wrote:On that note though, the point cost above are without a Guide/Doom Farseer which is essential to have one for EACH unit of Bladestorm avengers. A guide/doom Avengers is in fact a painful hit with shear volume of wounds, however it is very cost ineffective as well as tactically limiting.

I'd take a Nightspinner + Doom for my anti-Infantry over a Guide/Doom Bladestorm avengers any day of the week.

Jeah, some good points but, I have Eldrad. He boosts two of my squads alone, and then there is this additional farseer.
Its really foolis if you shoot all bladestorms in one turn, ay?

labmouse42 wrote:

Helvost wrote:Again I think it comes down to play tactics. The more aggressive playing needs the more impact for killing whole squads but the defensive player needs to keep them away and blast template them.

I think statements like this will be a lot more accurate when the new codex comes out. The way the Eldar are today, they can be either killy or survivable.

Let me give an example. 10 fire dragons can wreck face. To make reasonable in points, you need to take 5 in a serpent, putting you ~200 points. This makes them survivable. Or you can put them on foot with an exarch and firepike for ~200 points, which makes them very killy.
If you put them in a serpent with 10 dragons brings your unit ~300 points. The problem with this is that you will be bringing 5-6 tanks in a 1750 list, Thats not enough tanks to dilute enemy firepower, which makes your army less survivable.

As such, today Eldar are stuck with being either killy or survivable. Most players choose to survive.

Thats really good note! I am speechless... Never tought that...

For all: Ive started an poll in tactics section aboute those Avangers unit composition,
and wich one wins within few days, I put in my army.
And thanks for your implications!
I have to say again, really good comments!