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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 04:26:23
Subject: Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Xeno-Hating Inquisitorial Excruciator
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Guy I know has an extremely well painted and converted army. He never wins a game, but always wins the Best Painted award. So for showing up, he gets 40 bucks.
There was talk about putting a limit on the number of times you can do that, since the guy is obviously bottom feeding and not trying to compete and win the tournament.
This was met with a lot of opposition, with one person stating that if people don't want him winning it they need to up their painting and converting.
I've won several Best Painteds with several different armies but none of them ever get more than half the paint points in this area....so I have no clue how to "up" my score.
Should the local TO put in such a rule, or should this guy be allowed to keep pocketing money?
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40K RTT W/D/L 63/3/29
1 overall, 12 Best Sportsman, 3 Best Army, 5 Best Painting,1 Best Black Templars.
WFB RTT 0/0/6
1 Best Sportsman,1 Best Army |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 04:28:15
Subject: Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Some people are good painters but bad generals.
That doesn't mean he's just showing up to claim the prize.
If you want to win, look at his "extremely well painted army" and up your game.
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DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 04:31:49
Subject: Re:Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Fixture of Dakka
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Is he winning with the same army every time? then ya, kibosh it. The folks winning the game play side have to change up units every now and then to compete, the painters should as well.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 04:38:01
Subject: Re:Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Cyporiean wrote:Is he winning with the same army every time? then ya, kibosh it. The folks winning the game play side have to change up units every now and then to compete, the painters should as well.
Oh I agree with that as I have seen this happen many of times in my region.
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Adam's Motto: Paint, Create, Play, but above all, have fun. -and for something silly below-
"We are the Ultramodrines, And We Shall Fear No Trolls. bear this USR with pride".
Also, how does one apply to be a member of the Ultramodrines? Are harsh trials involved, ones that would test my faith as a wargamer and resolve as a geek?
You must recite every rule of Dakka Dakka. BACKWARDS.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 04:58:54
Subject: Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Been Around the Block
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They ought to just divide the competitions entirely. I know people think of 40k as an integrated hobby, but it is simply irrational to judge tournaments in that way. By this logic people should be judging the backstories that are written for individual regiments/chapters/etc...
This way the painting conversion prize pool is segregated from the tournament prize pool.
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GENERATION 10: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your sig and add 1 to the number after generation. Consider it a social experiment. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 14:58:40
Subject: Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Hunter with Harpoon Laucher
Castle Clarkenstein
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MediumYellow wrote:They ought to just divide the competitions entirely. I know people think of 40k as an integrated hobby, but it is simply irrational to judge tournaments in that way. By this logic people should be judging the backstories that are written for individual regiments/chapters/etc...
This way the painting conversion prize pool is segregated from the tournament prize pool.
In many Flames of War tournaments, they do judge your history and back story.)
There's no one way to run a tournament, no 'logical' way to run it. Logical just means it makes sense to one group. Maybe not to another group. Best thing here is to talk to the TO. Preferrably not as a group, and quietly. You don't want to make it seem like a witch hunt against one guy. Maybe suggest that players winning best painted don't enter with the exact same army the next time, and enforce that on the other side as well. I've seen the situation where one person wins 4 tournaments in a row with the same Leaf Blower list, similar situation. And its a lot harder to buy, paint up and convert another unit of models for an award winning army then it is to just buy something and get it to three color standard.
And I would absolutely avoid words like 'bottom feeding' in the discussion.
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....and lo!.....The Age of Sigmar came to an end when Saint Veetock and his hamster legions smote the false Sigmar and destroyed the bubbleverse and lead the true believers back to the Old World.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 15:06:28
Subject: Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
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I consider people who spend 100's of dollars on plastic figures, just to glue them together and push them around tables trying to beat other plastic figures, bottom feeders.
Its all perspective. Maybe you think somehow pushing plastic around and rolling dice is the only way warhammer can be enjoyed. If so, I'm sorry. I feel that a huge part of the enjoyment is in playing with a carefully painted army against another carefully painted army, so the game feels like it has some "depth" to it. I mean, when I play against unpainted armies, I kinda take a step back, see myself pushing little plastic men around, and ask wtf am I doing here?
Its much easier to enjoy a game with well-painted armies.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 15:10:22
Subject: Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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While I'm a staunch proponent of playing in tournaments / public / outside-of-proxy-testing with fully painted armies, and take a lot of pride in my own mediocre but patiently-applied paint jobs ... I think it's unfair for anyone to really look down on another for the way they enjoy the hobby.
This kind of applies across the board, including to whether someone changes up their army list or their paint job, or whatever. If the guy doesn't have to elevate his paint game by doing something new in order to win, why should he?
If he had the funds and inclination to, what makes anyone think he wouldn't go right ahead and win again, since his older paint job consistently beats everyone else anyway?
Live and let live. If you want to win a paint award, go win it, don't hope to pressure someone into somehow screwing up a new job and therefore not winning, so that you maybe can (or someone else).
Calling ANYONE a bottom feeder for reasons not relating to their personal behavior and attitude toward others ... well, that's just uncalled for.
This is especially true where they can't defend themselves. What are you going to do, go to your store and say SOME GUYS IN A DAKKA THREAD SAY YOU SHOULD CHANGE THE RULE! Just seems pointless / grasping for commiseration.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/05 15:14:15
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 15:10:26
Subject: Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I don't play tourneys, but look at it from the other side, there is a competition for best painted army. You turn up and win, but have to put up with all those crap painted armies that people bring which clearly didn't stand a chance- and they are arguing that they are playing to win?
{edit - someone above said about the same thing as I was typing}
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/05 15:11:34
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 15:12:05
Subject: Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos
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I fear we're not getting all of the story, or even all of one side side.
The OP seems pretty upset about this, but from the facts he presents it sounds like a guy shows up with the best painted army and wins the award every time. That's pretty fair, i suppose.
Is his army clearly well beyond everybody elses?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 15:19:21
Subject: Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Fixture of Dakka
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MediumYellow wrote:They ought to just divide the competitions entirely. I know people think of 40k as an integrated hobby, but it is simply irrational to judge tournaments in that way. By this logic people should be judging the backstories that are written for individual regiments/chapters/etc...
This way the painting conversion prize pool is segregated from the tournament prize pool.
Um... they already are? if the guy is winning 'best painted' he is winning best painted and not best general. I don't see how irrational it is to judge tourney where there is a prize for best painted based upon painting.
And to the OP: <text redacted> If his army is the best painted, then he should win. If you want to score better, paint better. You have clearly hit the top of the level of effort and skill you are willing to put in and just want the 'top dog' out so you can try to win. This was like how many of the golfers back in the day were hating on Tiger Woods and felt he should step aside so other golfers could win top honors... Eventually other people upped their game and have simply beaten him by playing better, not by asking the better person to be removed.
I also don't feel like someone should be asked to not play with his army or be forced to change it simply because people want a cash grab. Especially for RTTs which are local and frequent. I usually try to do one style of army for the entire tourney season so those models get a lot of replay with slight tweaks. I would be highly upset if I was told "you used those trukks last week, you better bring Kans this week or be penalized because your stuff was painted too good!"
<text redacted; there are ways to express your difference of opinion that do not involve attacking other posters --Janthkin>
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/05 20:01:20
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog!
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RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
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MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 15:20:19
Subject: Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator
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You know what I hate, there's this guy that shows up to our tournaments and tables everyone he plays against.
He's obviously a bottom feeder, showing up just pocket the tournament winnings every time. Should we ban him from our tournaments because he's such a better player than the rest of us?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 15:30:58
Subject: Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Sergeant First Class
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Honestly I think the only beef I would have is if the guy bought the army painted off Ebay or had it commissioned. Even then, he PAID for it.
This is coming from someone who has to use his good painting scores to make up for my other gaming defecits, namely the Thrice-Cursed Dice Gods.
However, it has to be said, there is the phenomenon of "Paint Burn-out" and I'm not talking painting the army. We had a guy locally who had back in the day, a super painted O&G army, that had within it 5 golden demon trophy models. Yet as time went on and he kept entereing the same army, he was no longer getting 'best painted" because we had seen it x number of times before. So when someone had a decent army, they gave it to him instead.
Weird that that hasn't happened in the OP's locale yet, though it might be the case of "I cant beat his painting, so why bother"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 15:33:42
Subject: Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos
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KGatch113 wrote:
I've won several Best Painteds with several different armies but none of them ever get more than half the paint points in this area....so I have no clue how to "up" my score.
Yet you assume he must know how to up his win count.
Sounds like sour grapes. Get over it...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 15:37:06
Subject: Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Badass "Sister Sin"
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Maybe talk to the TOs and find out what the painting rubrics are. Chances are there's another part of it you don't realize like conversions or highlighting, etc.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 15:41:15
Subject: Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Or you left your small pond for a bigger lake...
The more I think about it, the more that Bottom Feeder irks me.
Sorry dude, you sound like the one with the problem. Up your game.
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DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 15:51:55
Subject: Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
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KGatch113 wrote:I've won several Best Painteds with several different armies but none of them ever get more than half the paint points in this area Did you guys even read his post? The other players have tournament level painted armies. Its just whoever judges paint thinks this guys is the best. So in effect there is no competition happening whatsoever for painting. In the gameplay you have a shot at overcoming your opponents through a number of different things. However with this, there is no way for them to overcome their opponent solely because the guy judging paint likes this army the best. I would have no problem if there was actually a competition for paint score but according to our source there is multiple armies that could potentially win it. It sounds more like the guy won it once and now every time he shows up its just assumed his army is the best painted. My suggestion would be just to do away with painting scores while still requiring armies be painted OR switch to a renaissance man type of award where you get points for playing and painting. Handing out free money to some specific guy every single tournament is a bad idea just in general. You are going to lose players and have less attend if every tournament there is a $40 tax on prize support. No matter if you think painting is a legitimate award or not, unless you get some variety in the winners you are going to start having players upset.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/05 15:52:25
My 40k Theory Blog
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 15:55:47
Subject: Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Dakka Veteran
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I don't see the problem. What if there is one guy that shows up with the same "kill em all let god sort them out" list and wins Best General every tourney? Is he disallowed from playing in the next tournament to give someone else a chance to win?
To me he isn't a "bottom feeder" he just enjoys a different aspect of the hobby. Some people compete to stomp a mudhole in their opponent and walk it dry, some folks enjoy painting and could care less if they ever win a game.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/12/05 15:58:12
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 15:59:25
Subject: Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Badass "Sister Sin"
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@Timmah: I think that's assuming from his post things that aren't there. Either way, he should talk to the TO about how he can improve his painting score. If, in the process, the TO says, 'Don't bother, that guy's army will always win', then the group has a larger problem that has nothing to do with the guy with the well painted army.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 16:05:31
Subject: Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
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Boss GreenNutz wrote:I don't see the problem. What if there is one guy that shows up with the same "kill em all let god sort them out" list and wins Best General every tourney? Is he disallowed from playing in the next tournament to give someone else a chance to win?
Except that isn't happening. Just from a business sense of getting more players in the door, having one player always win the same prize is bad.
If this was happening I would suggest a change there as well.
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My 40k Theory Blog
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 16:07:54
Subject: Re:Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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[ARTICLE MOD]
Fixture of Dakka
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Define 'compete' at the tournament.
I could say the same thing about half the people who attend most tournaments. Because, if you have a tournament with painting as a scored component, I'm going to say that someone who makes the bare effort at painting their army isn't competing at that event. 'ard boyz style tournaments, fine. But, if you make something part of the score system, then anyone who makes less than a true effort can be said to not be competing.
If there is a prize for best-painted, why is no one else stepping up their game to win it? Seems that it is out there for the taking, with just a little effort.
Edit:
So you don't know how to up your game? Step one; actually talk to the guy judging the painting. Ask what he's looking at. Ask him what you need to work on. Talk to the guy who wins. Ask him how he gets some of his effects. I've never met someone who was unwilling to talk about techniques. I think I've seen this advice many times, often posed with the 'offer to buy the guy lunch' to pick his brain.
There's more to painting to win the prize than just making the army look good on the tabletop. It is as much a part of tournament prep as listening to podcasts and reading forums to find out what the metagame looks like or what new tactics are being developed. And, there's always more that you can do. Do your bases have interesting stuff on them? Do your models have any battle-damage? Paint scratches? What about tattoos, or face paint, or oaths scribbled on their armour? Do you have any blank spaces on models that could be filled with some freehand design?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/05 16:21:35
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 16:09:24
Subject: Re:Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Badass "Sister Sin"
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Redbeard wrote:I could say the same thing about half the people who attend most tournaments.
Absolutely. Unpainted or barely painted armies at events that have painting scores. That guys not even trying to win overall/painted. We should disallow them from winning anything.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 16:16:14
Subject: Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Infiltrating Hawwa'
Through the looking glass
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I see painting and playing as two completely different entities that can't be judged the same way.
You can't win more than once with the same paint job. New tournament, new entry. If a guy kept showing up and winning at a tourny I pay to enter with the same submission every time, I would voice my disfavor. I'm basically giving this guy my money for something that no longer requires effort on his part.
In regards to playing, if you keep running the same army, people will start fielding armies with the purpose of expressly beating yours. It will take effort to win every time you enter.
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“Sometimes I can hear my bones straining under the weight of all the lives I'm not living.”
― Jonathan Safran Foer |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 16:22:24
Subject: Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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MVBrandt wrote:While I'm a staunch proponent of playing in tournaments / public / outside-of-proxy-testing with fully painted armies, and take a lot of pride in my own mediocre but patiently-applied paint jobs ... I think it's unfair for anyone to really look down on another for the way they enjoy the hobby.
This kind of applies across the board, including to whether someone changes up their army list or their paint job, or whatever. If the guy doesn't have to elevate his paint game by doing something new in order to win, why should he?
If he had the funds and inclination to, what makes anyone think he wouldn't go right ahead and win again, since his older paint job consistently beats everyone else anyway?
Live and let live. If you want to win a paint award, go win it, don't hope to pressure someone into somehow screwing up a new job and therefore not winning, so that you maybe can (or someone else).
Calling ANYONE a bottom feeder for reasons not relating to their personal behavior and attitude toward others ... well, that's just uncalled for.
This is especially true where they can't defend themselves. What are you going to do, go to your store and say SOME GUYS IN A DAKKA THREAD SAY YOU SHOULD CHANGE THE RULE! Just seems pointless / grasping for commiseration.
100% true MVB. Do what you feel like to enjoy the hobby of 40k. Some people love to paint and bring their armies to compete for painting. Others want to take skulls and claim generalship. There is no wrong way of enjoying 40k as long as you do not exploit people or are being a TFG. As to him winning multiple times with the same army? How is that different than a player who wins multiple tournaments with the same army for battle?
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Comparing tournament records is another form of e-peen measuring.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 16:23:04
Subject: Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Badass "Sister Sin"
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Crazy talk here, but did anyone actually talk to the guy?
And limiting the number of times you can win with one paint job is silly. I'll just touch up one of my minis before every event.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 16:47:52
Subject: Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot
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How about making it best painting can only be won once a quarter? If he is there just to collect money he will only show up that once a quarter. If he is there to enjoy the hobby and play he will probably show up all the time still and enjoy playing as well. There could be several ways to handle this to make everyone feel satisfied.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 16:47:53
Subject: Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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[ARTICLE MOD]
Fixture of Dakka
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Necroshea wrote:You can't win more than once with the same paint job. New tournament, new entry. If a guy kept showing up and winning at a tourny I pay to enter with the same submission every time, I would voice my disfavor. I'm basically giving this guy my money for something that no longer requires effort on his part.
I see. So lets think through that. Let's say there are eight people. Two have painted armies that are really good. Two have painted armies that are 'tabletop' quality. Two have painted armies that meet the 'three color' definition, and two have armies that are bare plastic, they don't care about painting, they just want to play.
Let's say the tournament runs twice a month. So, month one, the two good armies both win. But now they're disqualified. So month two, the tabletop armies win. And now they're disqualified too. Month three, we have armies that barely have any paint on them winning (and being disqualified), and by month four, the unpainted armies are winning best painted. Yeah, that makes sense.
Or, what constitutes a new entry? How many models do you expect someone to paint in a month? If I have one new unit, but the rest of the army is the same, is that enough to allow me to compete?
In regards to playing, if you keep running the same army, people will start fielding armies with the purpose of expressly beating yours. It will take effort to win every time you enter.
You're assuming a lot here. First, I might be able to tailor a list to beat you, but if that means I lose to everyone else I play, I still don't win the tournament. Second, I might not have the available models to make list to beat you. I've got 20k points of daemons painted to choose from, and I'm not likely to beat a competent grey knight player regardless of which ones I bring.
You're presenting two different philosophies. You're saying that, for painting, a winner should have to change their army in order to be allowed to win again, but for playing, everyone else should be expected to change their army to beat the current winner. That's hardly consistent, let alone fair. If someone is allowed to win the battle points until someone else beats them, it should be the same for the paint points.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 16:56:21
Subject: Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Screaming Shining Spear
Central Coast, California USA
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This entire subject is blown a little out of porportion to me. $40??? Who cares. This guy travels (from who knows where), pays an entry fee, plays all day/weekend and wins one aspect of the tourney for $40 bucks. It's more like $20-$25 after you factor his costs in the matter. So if you want $20-25 bucks either give him some painting competition or go get a minimum wage job and work it for three hours. If he's a poor general at least you can say you beat him on the field.
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THE FUN HAS BEEN DOUBLED!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 17:13:08
Subject: Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
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MightyGodzilla wrote:This entire subject is blown a little out of porportion to me. $40??? Who cares. This guy travels (from who knows where), pays an entry fee, plays all day/weekend and wins one aspect of the tourney for $40 bucks. It's more like $20-$25 after you factor his costs in the matter. So if you want $20-25 bucks either give him some painting competition or go get a minimum wage job and work it for three hours. If he's a poor general at least you can say you beat him on the field.
I love this type of condescending reply, really I do.
Clearly the OP cares, clearly everyone that replied to this thread (including you), cares as well.
Why do you enter a tournament? Just get a job for that day and you'll get alot more money than you could by entering most tournaments!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/05 17:26:18
Subject: Bottom Feeding: People who don't compete at the tournament, but show up to claim other prizes.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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@KGatch113
Maybe talk to the TO about doing a different scoring structure.
Instead of the usual Best General, Sports, Painted do a Renaissance format for the top 3.
Renaissance = 33%battle 33% Sports 33% Painting or a combination thereof.
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