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I'm konverting some battlewagons and trying to decide how many to use in my army (about 2000 points). I usually play footsloggers and wanted to try out something different. Obviously, if I played full BW spam I wouldnt have that many boys (Is a full spam list considered cheesy?).


So, I'm asking for opinions on how both play out.

I play 4 BW in my normal 2k list

I dont' think its cheesy to use one of the only good builds for our old codex. I've hearsd people call out KFF big mek a cheesy unit (fyi they were playing grey knights) I welcomed him to try and find or build a decent list not using one... he never got back to me .

My 1850 BW spam list still has 60 boys, 10 optimized nobs, and 10 grots, so it's not exactly light on bodies.

It's a competitive list, and many armies will struggle to contain it. It's roughly as cheesy as any other high powered but one dimensional list: it stomps some lists hard but suffers mighily to it's counters.

Any more than four battlewagons is a waste of points, as there really is no point in fielding more than one unit of nobz.

Polonius wrote:It's a competitive list, and many armies will struggle to contain it. It's roughly as cheesy as any other high powered but one dimensional list: it stomps some lists hard but suffers mighily to it's counters.

This is what I was leaning towards. What counters would that be?

Jidmah wrote:Any more than four battlewagons is a waste of points, as there really is no point in fielding more than one unit of nobz.

Its not so much the nobz as it is just an excuse to take more deffrollas, I think the most you can take is 7 BWs? Have you tried/seen this played at all jidmah?

The rise of terminators makes deffrollas much less useful, so you need more boys.

And battlewagon spam runs into real trouble against DE, Tau, and highly mobile IG.

actually, you can take 3 elite nobz w/ BW, 3 HS BW and 2 from troops via 2 warlod hq's.

i've always wanted to try an 8 BW list... but lookng at how much it'd cost probably never will

Better question is why is a KFF cheese? Orks don't have exceptionally good HQ selections, Ghaz is ridiculous good but besides him a mech is basically the only option. Grotsnick is alot of fun and Zogwort is underrated imo, but they are basically both dead after one round of CC. With just some minor tune ups to those two HQ's I think you would see alot of new ork builds.

Generally I dont like it, only because of the battlewagon model having massive side arcs. Everytime I used battlewagons good generals would just go for the sides, and I do the same when I got up against them, its not terribly difficult.

If you play an army with mostly foot slogging boyz, then having Battlewagons for them will still allow you take use a lot of Boyz.

A BW filled up with 19 Boyz and a PK BP Nob is only 250-300 points each. 10 Boyz + a PK BP Nob in a Trukk is around half of that. So you could easily run a list with nobs and almost 100 boyz all with transports, 2 Big Mek KFFs and still have points left over.

Ravenous D wrote:Generally I dont like it, only because of the battlewagon model having massive side arcs. Everytime I used battlewagons good generals would just go for the sides, and I do the same when I got up against them, its not terribly difficult.

I agree that the front av 14 is pretty small, but if you march 8 BW's up the field in a line (terrain willing) only 2 are getting the sides.

Reckoner wrote: If you play an army with mostly foot slogging boyz, then having Battlewagons for them will still allow you take use a lot of Boyz.

yeah, I was just saying if you take the absolute max amount of BW's you can its going to decrease the amount of boys drastically

I regularly play against an ork army that runs 3 deffrolla BWs /w 2x KFF. The cover saves are ridiculous, but I am finding that getting into half melta range and having heavy flamers after the battlewagons pop works wonders. So watch out for that.

That being said, I still have a difficult time containing them. I usually end up sacrificing a tank or two, sometimes a drop pod and dread, just to tie them up for an additional turn so i can get more shots. This ends up being a liability in KP games, but the best I've come up with so far.

Steak wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Any more than four battlewagons is a waste of points, as there really is no point in fielding more than one unit of nobz.

Its not so much the nobz as it is just an excuse to take more deffrollas, I think the most you can take is 7 BWs? Have you tried/seen this played at all jidmah?

I have done 6 (two borrowed wagons). You'll simply find that a deff rolla is great, but a vehicle with nothing but 1d6 S10 "close combat" attacks is not going to rock the game. It really can't kill any infantry with a single wound well, is extremely vulnerable to melta of any kind and even measly S4 attacks have chance to make the entire vehicle useless.

Unless you have a wave of green orks keeping your opponent busy, you can't count on any of your battlewagons surviving. In addition, you're losing slots for lootaz and burnaz, and you can't get more than 5 in a line underneath a single KFF. The deff rolla simply is no railgun, so there is no point in crippling your own army to field more of them.

Jidmah wrote:Unless you have a wave of green orks keeping your opponent busy, you can't count on any of your battlewagons surviving. In addition, you're losing slots for lootaz and burnaz, and you can't get more than 5 in a line underneath a single KFF. The deff rolla simply is no railgun, so there is no point in crippling your own army to field more of them.

Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for.

First, Deffrollas are not for infantry, they are to kill vehicles, primarily to open up a transport to get to the cream filling.

In my Wagon list, I run roughly the following:

Battlewagon (Deffrolla, Big Shoot, Armor Plates) with 7-8 Nobz (2-3 PK) and a KFF Mek
3x Battlewagons (Deffrolla, Big Shoota, Armor Plates) with 20 Boyz each (Choppa Sluggas, Nob w/ PK and BP)
15 Kommandos (2 Burnas, Boss Snikrot)
13 Lootas
1 Big Mek with SAG and BP
15-19 Grotz

The theory is simple, rush forward with wagons under the KFF, usually i plant the KFF/Nob wagon behind at least 1 or two of the other wagons. Knowing Snikrot is in reserve, most opponents will keep units spread and away from the table edge, funneling them into the center of the table. Also, Snikrot and his unit can take out light vehicles and can tar pit heavy infantry units. The SAG mek and the Lootas can take out additional threats to your wagons, units such as flanking melta/flamer speeders and the like, as well as helping against foot slog units. Also the SAG provides AP 2 big blast shooting, nice against fast infantry squads and terms. The Deffrollas are nice because you can slam the wagon into a transport, and if it pops, your boys or nobs can hop out and assault whatever was inside. This list works fairly well against most lists, however as mentioned before, it either works extremely well, or it flat out fails. However, it does have the tools to at least have a chance against any thing. Hope this helps. Oh and depending on the situation, the SAG Mek works well in either the Grot squad or the Loota squad, as the BP on him gives better leadership and a re roll if needed, and its funny how mad your opponent will get when he has to kill off 19 grots before being able to kill your SAG.

A big part of this list is knowing what each unit can and cant do. If they have a big bad melee unit, fire at it with the SAG and Lootas before asaulting it. Try to let your Deffrollas open up transports, and focus lootas on shooty vehicles first (Fast vehicles are top priority) . Snikrots unit can tie up terminators for a round or two, or tear apart a light vehicle. Even the grots in the right situation can be awsome. If you charge a Dreadnaut with 19 or so Grots, it may be two or more turns before he can kill em or force them to run away( thats a unit around 70 points pretty much making a 115+ point unit fairly useless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and one last tid bit, the best advice I ever got about playing orks: Your opponent must at all times be threatened by ever unit in your army. This prevents your opponent from really having prioroty targets. If he has to worry about your wagons barreling towards him, while your SAG is ripping through his troops and your Lootas are shooting apart transports and other light vehicles, and he knows Snikrot will randomly appear on ANY table edge ready to rip his units apart, he has quite a few things he must plan for all at once.

Here's a pretty decent article on BW rush tactics http://www.3forint.com/2011/06/40k-orks-battlewagon-rush.html
I'm not sold on burnas, but the list is adaptable.

While that article is spot on with the basics, the author makes a bunch of errors, like putting ghaz with nobz and fielding a trukk instead of a fourth wagon. I wouldn't advice following him to the letter.

Dok wrote:Here's a pretty decent article on BW rush tactics http://www.3forint.com/2011/06/40k-orks-battlewagon-rush.html
I'm not sold on burnas, but the list is adaptable.

Not sold on this list, and here is why:

Ghaz is amazing in footslog lists. I dont think his abilities make up his points in MEQ lists, as what your paying for is only used on maybe 55 guys instead of 120+ like it should be

Cybork Bodies are made of win, Eavy armor is made of fail. Having both is even more pointless, as any thing that will negate Cybork Bodies will most likely aslo bypass Eavy Armor

Burna Boyz are great in Battlewagons in non Wagon rush lists.

Shoota boys footslog, Sluga Choppa Boyz go in transports.

7 Lootas will run away fast, and wont have the fire power to reliably hurt things. I find 13 to be quite effective.

Big Meks dont get PKs, they are to fragile, as they can be picked out im melee. The Get KFF, or SAG with BP, nothing else.

Also, The foundation of any ork list around 1500 to 2000 points needs to have at minimum 60 Boys. This whole list is 77 models. The list i posted above is like 117. 40 models will make a big difference.

He's changed the list significantly since then after playing it more. All your points above are valid. I'm not sure who's negating cybork bodies though? Nothing negates invulns anymore really.
Also, one of the best Ork players I know plays lootas in 7s and shoota boys in his wagons. There's no 100% formula on how to play an army. It's whatever is effective for your playstyle.

Kalzruk wrote:

Dok wrote:Here's a pretty decent article on BW rush tactics http://www.3forint.com/2011/06/40k-orks-battlewagon-rush.html
I'm not sold on burnas, but the list is adaptable.

Not sold on this list, and here is why:

Ghaz is amazing in footslog lists. I dont think his abilities make up his points in MEQ lists, as what your paying for is only used on maybe 55 guys instead of 120+ like it should be

You are paying for a guaranteed 26" assault, and the option to drop Ghaz onto any problematic unit on the board to handle it. Worth every single point.

Cybork Bodies are made of win, Eavy armor is made of fail. Having both is even more pointless, as any thing that will negate Cybork Bodies will most likely aslo bypass Eavy Armor

Agree. While negating cybork rarely is an issue, 5 point to upgrade a 5+ save to a 4+ (that often is ignored) is simply not worth it.

Burna Boyz are great in Battlewagons in non Wagon rush lists.

Actually they are not. Unless you are running a trukk list, a burna weagon will never get the chance to stack templates, as there is nothing else that needs to get shot by high-strength weapons.

Shoota boys footslog, Sluga Choppa Boyz go in transports.

Only true for trukks, not for battlewagons. Both are fine in battlewagons, as you should have units of 20 while footslogging, too.

7 Lootas will run away fast, and wont have the fire power to reliably hurt things. I find 13 to be quite effective.

13 is just as random as 7. Either you use 5 so you lose close to nothing when they run, or you use 15 and force your opponent to put some dedicated fire into removing them.

Big Meks dont get PKs, they are to fragile, as they can be picked out im melee. The Get KFF, or SAG with BP, nothing else.

The PK is used to punch rhinos and nother transports in the late game. While not a fan of it myself, it does make sense.

Also, The foundation of any ork list around 1500 to 2000 points needs to have at minimum 60 Boys. This whole list is 77 models. The list i posted above is like 117. 40 models will make a big difference.

That's nonsense. A footslogging army needs 60 boyz, one that doesn't lose any of their boyz while crossing the table has no such limitation. My Battlewagon bash contains around 69 models for 2000 and only a little more than 100 for 2500, and I have never, ever felt the need for more boyz. And I'm not exactly losing often either.

http://the11thcompany.freeforums.org/orks-ghaz-wagon-2000-points-t1293.html

This is a fairly brief synopsis of a hard hitting BW list. The key to this army is the Multi Assault as mentioned.

BW lists can be a solid and viable army, but remember 40K is a dice game (meaning the dice can skew even the best laid plans).

Surprisingly, this list is most effective against anti-vehicle heavy lists. It is also extremely effective against almost any Nilla marine list, most CSM lists, all middle to lower tier lists, Eldar, and most BA lists. It dominates foot lists, in general, except for extremely heavy HtH lists.

Read: You are screwed against Guard, Space Wolves, Greyknights, Tyranids, Tau, any not-DOA BA, dark eldar, other orks and probably even sisters of battle. The author basically said himself that the list is terrible, probably without realizing it.

Let's see why:
- 30 footslogging boyz in a fully motorized list. Why on earth would you want to do that? You're basically giving youself a 200 point handicap right there, because those boyz are not going to join the fight until it's over.
- 3x 4 meganobz. I thought the awesome thing about this list is multi-assaulting? How are you going to do that with 4 S&P models? There also is no point in wasting elite slots for more battlewagons if you still have heavy support slots left.
- 'ard boyz. I think we have done this to the death. They aren't worth their points.
- No vehicle supression. No lootaz, no koptaz, no buggies. That's why the IG picks him appart. He will suffer the same fate against any variant of razorspam, gunline armies or mobile armies like mech-eldar.
- No anti-infantry. Aside from boyz that list ist completely unable to deal with hordes. Tyranid tervigon-powered hordes will swamp them, even black templar hords will simply overrun those MANz and kill them. If you stun the 'ard boyz wagon (he also didn't buy armor plates) and you're fielding a horde you've pretty much won the game right there.
- No unit that can handle close combat experts. Striking Scropions, Purifiers, Khorne Berzerkers, Genestealers, Sanguine Guard or any CC monster like Mephiston, Draigo or a Hive Tyrant will simply tear right across this army Without resistance. Even thrakka isn't going to survive more than one game turn against those.

To conclude, this army is weak against offensive vehicles, mobile anti-tank, hordes, close combat experts, and close combat characters. All weakness which can be easily eliminated by picking your unit more wisely.

Jidma, you deff have some good Orky wisdom.I guess i see your point on good ol Gaz. The Eavy armor comment, what i meant to say is that the cybork bodies paired with FNP is a better combo then FNP paired with Eavy armor, as just about any nob squad should have a Painboy. Just about any thing that can deny FNP with ignore the 4+ save any ways. The burna boys comment you made was on par with what i was going for. As far as Boyz go, i guess im a bit against boys with shootas. Ive used 7, 9, 13, and 15 deep lootas squads, and I guess ive just had the best luck with 13 (seems to be my lucky squad size number in warhammer), but i can see how 9 and 15 are not that bad either. I have never faired well with 5, as they just dont seem to kill all that much, and run away after 2 die. I can see how the PK on a mek can be good late game, but i just feel like it really isnt worth the points just for that. And my meks never get that close to combat any ways. Still not sure how i feel about small ammounts of boyz, as they seem to be the most effective part of any ork army for their small points investment.