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Here's a question. I've checked the rules on this and from my understanding I can do what I am asking.

P67 says a unit which fired at a enemy transport can assault the enemy unit inside if the transport is destroyed. The rules do not mention who destroyed the transport, as long as it was destroyed, and the unit which is going the assault previously fired at the transport.

The rules say "However, if a transport is destroyed (either result) by a ranged attack, the unit which shot it may assault the disembarked passengers". That rule doesn't say who is destroying the transport, just says as long as a unit which shot at the transport may assault.

So with that reference here is my question and example.

Unit A fires at a transport and fails to pop it. Unit B fires at the transport and pops it. Can unit A assault the enemy unit which just disembarked because unit A did shoot at the transport.

Thanks!

No. As the rules are worded only the unit that popped the transport would be permitted to charge the now disembarked squad.

In your quote, you post "...the unit which shot it may assault the disembarked passengers." The first part of the quote also seems to imply that the destruction of the vehicle has been caused by the squad intending to assault.

Without the relevant rules from before and after what you quoted, its hard to give a definitive response (rulebook not handy).

Based on what you posted, and what I've seen played, the squad would have had to destroy the transport, thus forcing the disembark, to be able to assault the contents.

I have quoted the full sentence. It just says before that a squad cannot fire the lascannon, blow up the tank and then mow down the occupants with bolters.

I can see how this can become confusing....here it is in my understanding;

Squad A shoot the transport but don't destroy it

Squad B shoot the transport and do destroy it

Squad C were going to shoot but transport got destroyed first

Squad A can't assault it because they didn't destroy it

Squad B can assault if they didn't fire rapid fire or heavy weapons (and if they're in range which they probably wont be because of difficult terrain or squad disembarking far away)

Squad C can assault as long as they don't fire on any other targets and are in range.

s.j.mccartney wrote:Squad C were going to shoot but transport got destroyed first

Squad A can't assault it because they didn't destroy it

Squad B can assault if they didn't fire rapid fire or heavy weapons (and if they're in range which they probably wont be because of difficult terrain or squad disembarking far away)

Squad C can assault as long as they don't fire on any other targets and are in range.

Squad A: correct.
Squad B: correct, though like you said, they need to be in range as well.
Squad C: partially correct. You resolve shooting on a unit by unit basis. So Squad A shoots at tank, fails to pop. Squad B shoots at tank, pops the tank. Squad C can then shoot the occupants and if close enough assault them.

My own opinion is that yes they can assault the unit.

"Note: remember that all models in a single unit fire
simultaneously, so a squad cannot take out a transport
with its lascannon and then mow down the occupants
with their bolters. However, if a transport is destroyed
(either result) by a ranged attack, the unit that shot it
may assault the now disembarked passengers, if it is
allowed to assault according to the assault rules."

The normal assault rules allow you to assault the unit you shot at as long as there are no other rules preventing you from doing so (rapid fire, out of range etc.)

Squad A fire at the transport but fail to destroy it.

Squad B fire at the transport and destroy it.

Squad A and B fired at exactly the same unit....

Still that's how I read it as I cannot see anything explictily preventing Squad A from charging, just a line allowing Squad B to do so.

I may be wrong (and don't ask my wife, she always says I'm wrong)

This question is quite common. A quick search will find you a half dozen or more discussions on the matter and the answer is as always if you fired at the transport and did not pop it then you may not charge the occupants even if another unit does pop the transport.

Hell, I've been out of the game for years and have yet to play under 5th editon rules, what do I know!

Kick me back into the cupboard under the stairs and don't wake me up again for a month

Boggy79 wrote:My own opinion is that yes they can assault the unit.

"Note: remember that all models in a single unit fire
simultaneously, so a squad cannot take out a transport
with its lascannon and then mow down the occupants
with their bolters. However, if a transport is destroyed
(either result) by a ranged attack, the unit that shot it
may assault the now disembarked passengers, if it is
allowed to assault according to the assault rules."

The normal assault rules allow you to assault the unit you shot at as long as there are no other rules preventing you from doing so (rapid fire, out of range etc.)

Squad A fire at the transport but fail to destroy it.

Squad B fire at the transport and destroy it.

Squad A and B fired at exactly the same unit....

Still that's how I read it as I cannot see anything explictily preventing Squad A from charging, just a line allowing Squad B to do so.

I may be wrong (and don't ask my wife, she always says I'm wrong)

RAW, I agree... unless "shot it" means destroyed... but I acknowledge that this is not the standard interpretation. INAT doesn't address this, so they must find it cut and dry too.

Boggy79 wrote:Still that's how I read it as I cannot see anything explictily preventing Squad A from charging, just a line allowing Squad B to do so.

What's preventing Squad A from assaulting is the fact that the unit they shot at is no longer a valid assault target.

Squad B is given explicit permission to charge something other than the unit they shot, because they are the unit that destroyed the vehicle. Squad A is not.

Within the context of the complete rule as written, 'the unit that shot it' is the unit that caused the vehicle to be destroyed. Not just any unit that shot at the vehicle.

But the rule quoted does not say, the unit that destroyed it is the only one allowed to assault. In fact the only rule is if you shot the transport then you are allowed to assault the passengers if the transport was destroyed. Nothing says when the Transport must be destroyed, only...
a. Did unit shoot at transport?
b. Was the Transport destroyed?

If the answer to both questions is Yes, then the unit may assault the passengers. Nothice the question of who destoryed the transport is never asked.

No.

insaniak explained it well.

kirsanth wrote:No.

insaniak explained it well.

I disagree.

Boggy79 wrote:However, if a transport is destroyed
(either result) by a ranged attack, the unit that shot it
may assault the now disembarked passengers, if it is
allowed to assault according to the assault rules."

jbunny wrote:

kirsanth wrote:No.

insaniak explained it well.

I disagree.

I trimmed the quote down to the relevant line. "the unit" can only mean the one that destroyed it, not any unit that shot at the transport.

As weird as it is, Insaniak is correct.

The vehicle and the unit inside are two separate units.

There is a specific provision for the unit that destroys the vehicle that allows it to assault the contents. Anything else that shot at, but did not destroy, the vehicle fired on the unit consisting of the transport and not the unit that was inside, thus it cannot assault the unit since that is not the unit that it fired upon in the shooting phase.

rigeld2 wrote:

Boggy79 wrote:However, if a transport is destroyed
(either result) by a ranged attack, the unit that shot it
may assault the now disembarked passengers, if it is
allowed to assault according to the assault rules."

jbunny wrote:

kirsanth wrote:No.

insaniak explained it well.

I disagree.

I trimmed the quote down to the relevant line. "the unit" can only mean the one that destroyed it, not any unit that shot at the transport.

I don't see why that is the only way of reading it. If it said, the unit that destroyed it, then I would agree with you.

It does by saying 'the unit' instead of 'any unit'.

It is the only way to read it because the singular usage of "the unit" as opposed to something like "any unit."

The sentence gives ONE unit permission to assault a different unit than it shot.

However, if a transport is destroyed
(either result) by a ranged attack, the unit that shot it
may assault the now disembarked passengers, if it is
allowed to assault according to the assault rules."

jbunny wrote:I don't see why that is the only way of reading it. If it said, the unit that destroyed it, then I would agree with you.

Because the first part of the rule is "...if a transport is destroyed by a ranged attack..."
If a unit shoots the transport and does not destroy it, then the transport has not been destroyed by a ranged attack. So the unit that shot it (but failed to destroy it) cannot assault the passengers because they have not been forced to disembark, they are still in the transport.

If the next unit shoots at the transport and now does destroy it by a ranged attack, then the passengers must immediately disembark. The unit that caused the transport to be destroyed may assault the now disembarked passengers.

Only the particular unit that destroyed the transport by a ranged attack can now assault a unit other than the one it fired at.

jbunny wrote:But the rule quoted does not say, the unit that destroyed it is the only one allowed to assault.

Because that unit isn't the only one allowed to assault the disembarked unit.

However, any unit that shot at the transport and didn't destroy it is not given permission to charge anything else.

In fact the only rule is if you shot the transport then you are allowed to assault the passengers if the transport was destroyed.

That's not what it says.

It says that if the transport is destroyed, the unit that shot it can assault the passengers.

In that context 'the unit' is the unit that fired the shot that destroyed the transport.

Okay this is pretty obvious...

The transport and the unit inside are two different units.

If we omit the rule in question for a second, you would NEVER be able to assault a unit that came out of a destroyed transport if you shot at the transport.

You must assault the unit you shot at (unless you have a rule stating explicitly otherwise). Thus, you must assault the transport if you shot at the transport (or not assault at all).

Now if we put that rule back in it is clearly an exception granting the unit that DESTROYS the vehicle the ability to assault the contents.

Everything else that shot at the vehicle does not gain this exception (since they have to destroy the vehicle to gain it), and as such their only valid target of assault is the vehicle (which is no longer present). Ergo, only the unit that destroys the vehicle may assault the contents.

It's as simple as that :/

I would agree with the above posters. I personally feel (and have seen this played in more than a few different game shops) that the wording on the rule (pg 67) of the rulebook is simply clarifying the available actions of the troop (Unit A in the below example) that shot the vehicle.

Ex:
Unit A shoots all of its guns at the Rhino, destroying it. However, as ALL their guns went off simultaneously, then they can't declare that any of their shots are going against the troops disembarking the vehicle. Their only remaining action would be that it is NOW legal for them to assault the disembarking troops. (This is to declare that while the Rhino and its embarked troops are normally separate units, in cases like this, they are able to be assaulted by the unit that destroyed their transport.)

Units can only assault targets that they shoot at in the Shooting phase.

However, not all units actually Shoot. Assault Terminators, 65% of the Chaos Daemon Codex, Sisters Repentia, etc.

EX.
Unit A (Assault Marines), Unit B (Assault Terminators) and Unit C (Scout Squad) all move into Assault range of an enemy Rhino. Units A and C both shoot at the Rhino, with Unit A destroying the Rhino. The enemy troops disembark the burning wreck.
Unit A can now assault those disembarking troops because they destroyed the vehicle. Unit C can't. They didn't succeed to destroy it and their only legal assault target is the flaming wreck. However, Unit B, the Assault Terminators CAN still assault the disembarked troops because they didn't shoot, thereby eliminating their target selection.







Automatically Appended Next Post:
By shooting at the Rhino, Units A and C committed themselves to an action, with Unit B having no shooting phase, they aren't locked onto the Rhino. They are able to pick their target as normal during the assault phase. In this case, it is the now disembarked troops.

PoetNWar wrote:I would disagree to the above posters.

Really? Because you seem to be agreeing with most of them...