IG what heavy support choice to get?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**GalacticDefender**

I'm trying to build my army mainly around killing orks, but looking for versatility as well. I already have a LR demolisher, and I'm m thinking that a basilisk would be a good choice for the points, but I'm not sure. ANd advice would be appreciated.

**ObliviousBlueCaboose**

A manticore. Nothing kills hordes like a manticore.

**schadenfreude**

Manticore or hydra.

**ObliviousBlueCaboose**

Hydra allows a coversave and doesnt have the killy power a manticore has.

**GalacticDefender**

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:A manticore. Nothing kills hordes like a manticore.

I will be getting one at some point definitely, though to be honest, I want to wait until my friend's Ork army is at least a little bit larger, otherwise the games would not be fun

What exactly are the advantages of Basilisks? They seem to be a pretty good all around unit. (Not great at any specific thing, but decent at most?)

The Ork list is also quite vehicle heavy, if that helps. At least one Battlewagon, plus a a bunch of looted stuff.

**ObliviousBlueCaboose**

Dont get a bassie unless its for apoc. It has a 36inch direct fire blind spot, so it gets rid of the barrage rule. It is str 9, and ap 3. For the same price dollarwise and for 25 more points get a leman russ. More surviveablity, and same firepower.

**Necrontyr40k**

To OP,

The best choices in the heavy slot are executioner, manticore, and hydra. The rest simply cannot match those for killiness vs point cost.

You sound like a new player (basilisk?!), so you may want to keep re-reading the codex together with the special rules and general rules in the big book, as related to your units. Never take advice about the rules from the internet - always double-check with the big book.

**Ailaros**

schadenfreude wrote:Manticore or hydra.

I agree, these two choices and the hydra's bigger, uglier cousin the exterminator are the three best choices, generally speaking. The basilisk isn't all that bad, though, depending on what the rest of your list looks like.

GalacticDefender wrote:What exactly are the advantages of Basilisks?

They're very, very cheap, while being able to threaten everything. S9 with ordnance rules is scary to vehicles, and AP3 is scary to infantry while being able to shoot at targets it can't see (while still having the option to shoot at things it can, even up close), makes it something that, if not necessarily all that high damaging, certainly can't be ignored. All for only 125 pts.

The only reason it doesn't make my top 3 is because units that sit and shoot blast weapons aren't very kindly handled in our current rules edition. Perhaps when 6th comes out, we'll see.

**GalacticDefender**

Yeah, I'm kind of new. I've got a pretty much complete SM army, and have been playing on and off for about a year. The main reason I'm looking for a use for a basilisk is because they look so cool, but if they are of little tactical value I assume I should reconsider. (And I do use an executioner sometimes. Totally epic unit.)

So how could a demolisher/executioner be used in conjunction with a regular Leman Russ?

**ObliviousBlueCaboose**

Except the bassie has a 36 inch blind spot, so you might as well get a vanilla russ. Or two hydras, bit i dont have good experience with those.

**Ailaros**

Basilisks aren't bad, remember, but they're not great, so they will only make sense in certain lists. For example, if you run tons of melta vets, having some large pie to handle Sv3 units wouldn't be too shabby

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Except the bassie has a 36 inch blind spot, so you might as well get a vanilla russ.

No it doesn't. It can still shoot between 1"-36" any time it wants. In fact, the basilisk has NEVER been unable to shoot at targets less than 36" away, as that's only ever been a restriction for when a basilisk decides to shoot indirectly that turn.

Furthermore, for the price of one russ, you can buy two basilisks.

**ObliviousBlueCaboose**

125+125 = 250
Vanilla russ is 150. If you gonna have 36in where you have to fire directly, and seeing that the table is 4x6, it makes a russ better.

**Ailaros**

A 4x6' table is 3456 sq in. Parked in a corner, a basilisk in IF mode has a 1017 square inch blind spot. That's less than 30% of the board.

AND basilisks can shoot over intevening terrain and units, which means that in that remaining 70% vehicles dont' get cover saves (or units behind cover).

AND basilisks have +1 S against vehicles

AND basilisks can hide completely out of LOS. What's more durable, AV14, or a unit that can't get shot?

No, the russ isn't "just better" than a basilisk. Like any comparison between a russ variant and it's AV12 alternative, it's generally worthwhile to take the russ only if you specifically need the AV14 for something, which in the case of the basilisk is even tougher to make than usual.

**Talore**

Ailaros wrote:No, the russ isn't "just better" than a basilisk. Like any comparison between a russ variant and it's AV12 alternative, it's generally worthwhile to take the russ only if you specifically need the AV14 for something, which in the case of the basilisk is even tougher to make than usual.

Also, the Leman Russ has mobility when firing Ordinance weapons (Rumbling Behemoth) but that's besides the point when you're talking artillery.

**ObliviousBlueCaboose**

When isnt it better to have a more surviveable vechicle. For a mere 25 more points, you get a more versitile gun, better armor, and can move and shoot. In a perfect world you could park it in the corner, but this isnt a perfect world. You could screen it with chimeras. Or the russ could screen your chimeras vulnerable av 10 sides.

**Ailaros**

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:When isnt it better to have a more surviveable vechicle.

Firstly, being entirely out of LOS is more survivable. A unit that can't be targeted has infinite survivability.

Secondly, what's better than being more survivable is having more killing power, among other things. The difference between a pair of basilisks and a pair of russes is that the basilisk list also gets a squad of meltavets. And that's not even including the fact that the basilisk does more damage over all.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:For a mere 25 more points, you get a more versitile gun

What? How is a S8 AP3 gun that can't shoot indirectly more versatile than a S9 AP3 gun that can?

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:In a perfect world you could park it in the corner, but this isnt a perfect world

Imperfection of your environment is much better handled with an IF gun than without. Plus, a basilisk can still shoot directly in the unlikely scenario that 100% of your opponent's army is within the blind spot of one of your basilisks.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:and can move and shoot.

Talore wrote:Also, the Leman Russ has mobility when firing Ordinance weapons (Rumbling Behemoth)

Read your rules, people. A basilisk can move and shoot, and with a higher strength gun to boot. Meanwhile, the russ' lumbering behemoth rule only lets you fire the hull heavy bolter when you move less than 6", it has nothing to do with the main gun.

**Talore**

Ailaros wrote:
Talore wrote:Also, the Leman Russ has mobility when firing Ordinance weapons (Rumbling Behemoth)
Read your rules, people. A basilisk can move and shoot, and with a higher strength gun to boot. Meanwhile, the russ' lumbering behemoth rule only lets you fire the hull heavy bolter when you move less than 6", it has nothing to do with the main gun.

Erm, that was in regards to the blanket statement of taking Russes or their non-Russ variants. You can fire Ordinance weapons while moving combat speed but not Ordinance Barrage weapons, so you can move and shoot but only direct fire. Lumbering Behemoth says "can fire its turret weapon in addition... (even if the turret weapon is ordinance!) Is the turret weapon not the main weapon?

**ObliviousBlueCaboose**

Again a leman russ is only 25 more points. So you can get a bassie and .25 of a meltavet squad. And your paying for the bassies if. Which you cant use if you move . And it more versitile inthat you a 6 foot range no matter what. Where the bassie has a 36in df the the rest is if.

**Ailaros**

Okay, look at it from the other side.

You have two vehicles. They both can move 6" and shoot a large blast AP3 piece of ordnance. One vehicle gets AV14, while the other must deal with AV12, but has +1S (which makes it a credible threat against heavy vehicles), and it's also cheaper.

These two vehicles, per point, are roughly equal in quality.

Except then one of those vehicles has the ability to conditionally ignore enemy cover saves, and hits vehicles on side armor on up to 70% of the board, while being able to take a 1+ cover save for the first couple turns of the game (or longer, depending on what your opponent does), and is able to attack units that are untargetable by the rest of your army like deepstrikers, except without the pain of mishaps.

That vehicle is now far superior. The only reason ever to take the other is if you really need that AV14 for something because apart from the ability to take a hull lascannon, that's its only advantage.

**Billagio**

The good ol LRTB is great. I would also consider getting a manticore.

**h0r0**

IMO the LRBT vs Basilisk in terms of AV is not AV 14 vs AV 12 its AV14 front AV13 side vs. AV12 front AV 10 side and open-topped. You have to consider that there would be outflankers, fast armies, ordnance barrage or deepstrikers that could get those side shots.

Both work IMO, but for most of the time the LRBT won't get shot because of higher AV (unless melta of course). The Basilisk if kept out of LOS would lose its AV weakness, that is if you can keep it out of LOS forever. Also you can buy the enclosed crew compartment for the basilisk but that's already making it near the point cost range for the LRBT.

In terms of Firepower and versatility the Basilisk wins no doubt.

**somecallmeJack**

GalacticDefender wrote:Yeah, I'm kind of new. I've got a pretty much complete SM army, and have been playing on and off for about a year. The main reason I'm looking for a use for a basilisk is because they look so cool, but if they are of little tactical value I assume I should reconsider. (And I do use an executioner sometimes. Totally epic unit.)

So how could a demolisher/executioner be used in conjunction with a regular Leman Russ?

Basilisks aren't terrible. They're just not as good as Manticores. Of course, this is the internet, where 'not as good as' = 'completely irredeemable unit not worth taking in the least competitive fluff list'. If you want to use basilisks, do so. They're not a gateway to failure. Fact is, they're very cheap points wise, they have the strength to reliably damage most vehicles, they're ordnance, so you're rolling two dice & picking the highest for vehicle peneteration anyway, theyre a large blast that with AP3, so unless MEQ have cover, you're doubling them out and bypassing their save, & if you shoot them from far away enough, you'll probably end up ignoring their cover anyway due to firing indirectly.

People go on about the basilisk's massive blind spot. Don't look at it as an indirect fire platform that's useless once other units are within 36', look at it as a direct fire platform that has the bonus of being able to fire indirectly early in the game when units are still far away. People always seem to forget that basilisks can still fire directly within their minimum range.

If you're being strictly competitive, manticores are better for the points. But that doesnt mean you should totally discount basilisks.

**Flavius Infernus**

Back to the OP--orks always have cover from a kustom force field, if the ork player knows what he's doing. So the problem is not a question of Str8 vs Str 9, it's about having a combination of good coverage and being able to bypass/ignore cover.

For killing orks specifically, it's hard to beat a hellhound--but it's a fast choice rather than a heavy. But if you take a hellhound and drive it behind your chimera wall, you'll always have something that can threaten orks and can use that heavy slot for something else. Also hellhounds have the huge advantage that they don't scatter.

The eradicator also fires a shot that is specifically deadly to orks, but not very good against anything else. Essentially it's the same shot as a hellhound, but more expensive and less accurate since it scatters.

Manticores don't ignore cover saves, but they get more coverage 2/3 of the time with the multiple blasts, and with str10 they can threaten even the T5 orks (bosses) with instant death. Plus they're very versatile. But unlike hellhounds, which can move with your army, they tend to sit in the back where kommandoes or snikgrot can come around and get them.

**ObliviousBlueCaboose**

@somecallmejack, all you listed is why i perfer the vanilla russ. -1 str, but a whole lot more armor for 25 more points. Bassies are good in apoc tho.

But yeah, i run a hellhound in every list i run. Its an awesome tank. I honestly think its better then a valk w/ rocket pods. Which makes people at my flgs give me weird looks.

**kungfujew**

In all the lists I make and have taken to the table, I can't leave home with less than 2 leman russes and a basilisk. From 1000 points up I always need them with my hoard of men. Despite what some people's opinions are about sponsons, I can't have less than one battle cannon/plasma sponson combo. Especially against a horde army that's coming to you, the extra plasma blasts will hit something if fired into a mob. With them and a lascannon the price of 205 pts seems like a steal.

**martin74**

Manticore. If you can afford three bassilisks, go with that too. However, a hellhound with hull flamer is great to do some damage to orks. Think about that too.

**schadenfreude**

Several misconceptions.

Manticores and other indirect fire weapons don't ignore cover saves, they ignore intervening terrain/units when they indirect fire.

Basilisks don't have a 36" blind spot. They can direct fire at ranges under 36". Manticores also have a minimum range (24") for indirect fire, but they can still direct fire at any range.

Against AV11 or less a single Hydra is a better tank hunter than a single Manticore, and costs half the points. Against AV12 a pair of hydras are a better tank hunter than 1 manticore, and they cost 10 points less. Against AV13+ the manticore is better, and against tanks with weak side armor like IG 12/10/10 tanks and BA 13/11/10 tanks the manticore is better. Seeing as how AV10 and AV11 are very common armor values for transports the hydra is very useful.

LRBT are almost never nakid and vanilla, thus their point cost is usually more than 150 points.

The AV14/13 of a LRBT is a liability in many lists. It makes the target priority for many armies very simple, and the presence of LRBT will often convince an opponent to focus S7-S9 firepower onto your Vendettas instead. The high AV of a LRBT is often a non issue when going up against a good opponent. AV12 IG vehicles often carry more firepower and are easier to kill. An opponent with good target priority will ignore AV14 targets unless they have a double dice melta shot.